Taken the plunge.

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
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RickH
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby RickH » 22 Oct 2017, 8:51pm

kwackers wrote:
meic wrote:Legally, if there was ever to be an unfortunate accident, it would put you in the same position as Charlie Alliston. With the newspapers and the prosecution whipping up a storm about riding an illegal bike/motorbike at the time of the collision.

I suspect you'd need to be in the same position as CA, where the modification could be demonstrated to have played a role otherwise it's a technical infringement.

Apart from the fact that they might decide to play the untaxed, uninsured, unlicensed motorbike card. I thought I read of a case (but I can't find it at the moment) where someone was knocked off an e-bike & then ended up being charged as it was found not to be a legal one!

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2017, 9:17am

RickH wrote:Apart from the fact that they might decide to play the untaxed, uninsured, unlicensed motorbike card. I thought I read of a case (but I can't find it at the moment) where someone was knocked off an e-bike & then ended up being charged as it was found not to be a legal one!

The question still remains - is it illegal? I can find no indication that it is.

I wonder how many ebikes are illegal? Most of the ones I see are modified bikes rather than being manufactured as ebikes. At least half are obviously not legal and of the other half how many are running with the limits removed?
It's only software and on most controllers is nothing other than a menu option. Even if the option doesn't readily exist it's easily by-passable by giving it the wrong wheel size (and all controllers I've seen can be hacked by plugging them into a computer).

Ditto the 250w limit. It's nonsense. Electric motors can be hacked usually in software. Most have current limits which can be changed and failing that increasing the voltage of the battery pack is by far the easiest way and the rewards are pretty large (V squared).

Most of these changes aren't detectable at a glance and require some forensics to uncover.

EddieJ
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby EddieJ » 23 Oct 2017, 10:07am

You know full well that your bike is illegal to use anywhere than on private land that has no public access or right of way.

You are even going to lengths to avoid stating the bikes nominal watts and have taken things even further by having an incorrect data plate fitted to the motor. By doing so, you are taking things way beyond what you deem to be a "legal technicality" On the plus side of your actions, you have started a paper trail.

Once again for reference, the law could not be any clearer on this matter. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike ... -bike-law/


.

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2017, 10:18am

EddieJ wrote:You know full well that your bike is illegal to use anywhere than on private land that has no public access or right of way.

No I don't. You've provided no evidence.
As I've said, plenty of bike's available supposedly meeting the requirements for sale using the same unit.
You are even going to lengths to avoid stating the bikes nominal watts and are stupidly taken things even further by having an incorrect data plate fitted to the motor. By doing so, you are taking things way beyond what you deem to be a "legal technicality" On the plus side of your actions, you have started a paper trail.

What on earth are you jabbering on about? Who's having an incorrect data plate fitted to what now?

(Paper trail my buttocks. )

Once again for reference, the law could not be any clearer on this matter. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike ... -bike-law/

Proving what?

I might send it back and get a 750w version. Apparently you can get 1.5Kw out of them with a bit of fondling. Hmmm, 30 odd mph average. I like the sound of that don't you?
Might add a hub motor or even two whilst I'm at it.

There's a question, if I add 3 EN approved devices am I still legal? Does it say you can only have one?

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mjr
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2017, 11:28am

kwackers wrote:
EddieJ wrote:You know full well that your bike is illegal to use anywhere than on private land that has no public access or right of way.

No I don't. You've provided no evidence.

Really? http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike ... -bike-law/ looks like evidence that https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-750w-bbs02/ is not road legal here and http://dillengerelectricbikes.co.uk/ele ... afang.html sells it labelled only for off-road use.

kwackers wrote:As I've said, plenty of bike's available supposedly meeting the requirements for sale using the same unit.

Show any that are advertised as road-legal. The sale requirements are not the same as the road use requirements.

I agree that the law seems a bit daft, especially as the USA is allowing 750w throttle so they're obviously going to keep appearing in this country. Also, no-one seems particularly interested in enforcing the law against e-motorbikes as long as they're pootling rather than burning around at the theoretical 30mph but that may all change when more have been crashed into other people. Do you really want to be a test case?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 23 Oct 2017, 11:40am

mjr wrote:Really? http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike ... -bike-law/ looks like evidence that https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-750w-bbs02/ is not road legal here and http://dillengerelectricbikes.co.uk/ele ... afang.html sells it labelled only for off-road use.

Shush.
I made a mistake on my OP re the motor but thread drift made this much more interesting than the mere fitting and use of a ebike motor. (Don't tell Eddie)
I'm not convinced looking at your links though. I can find various power ratings for BBS02's that are under 750w and various power ratings for BBS01's that are over 250w. Whether these are just battery and/or controller changes I'm not sure.

I agree that the law seems a bit daft, especially as the USA is allowing 750w throttle so they're obviously going to keep appearing in this country. Also, no-one seems particularly interested in enforcing the law against e-motorbikes as long as they're pootling rather than burning around at the theoretical 30mph but that may all change when more have been crashed into other people. Do you really want to be a test case?

Firstly I won't be a test case but even if there were a chance in reality I'd stand more chance of winning the lottery.

But a lot of my points have been valid, the law is nonsense, it doesn't keep up and it can't keep up. Batteries and drive units are getting smaller. The hidden motor that fits in a downtube should be evidence of where we could be going. Hacking current systems is a doddle, stamped motor powers are meaningless and a system that looks completely legit can be anything but.

I'm not against regulation, 30mph+ pushbikes I think are a bit OTT and I've no issues classing them as motorcycles.
But I do think there's a hole. A 750w, sub 30mph true 'moped' would be ideal for a lot of people (me included).

So here's what I'd suggest.
Leave the current ebike spec but add another layer that has the 750w, sub 30mph bike (perhaps with a weight limit so it doesn't end up like mopeds of old).
No MOT, no registration but compulsory insurance; a simple rider type policy (does current home 3rd party insurance specifically exclude ebikes?)

Ruadh495
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby Ruadh495 » 24 Oct 2017, 1:21pm

Your suggestion sounds like an "S-class" pedelec. Legal in Germany, Holland and proposed in France (possibly legal by now). These are allowed 500W (I think) and assist up to 45Kph. I believe helmets (cycle type) are required even in Holland and small registration plates. I don't think a driving license is required. For the next 2 years (approx.) there would be nothing to prevent a German visitor using a German registered S-class in the UK, but there's no way to register one here.

A 250W designation on a motor should indicate that the motor can run at up to 250W indefinitely, but if you try to "hot-rod" it by increasing the voltage or amperage available from the controller it's possible that the magic smoke will escape. That's the theory; in practice most 250W motors appear to be higher wattage motors "down plated" and will cope with much higher wattages. After all the plate only indicates that it won't cook at 250W not that it will cook at 260W, but that is what the law goes on.

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 15 Nov 2017, 3:07pm

mjr wrote:
kwackers wrote:As I've said, plenty of bike's available supposedly meeting the requirements for sale using the same unit.

Show any that are advertised as road-legal. The sale requirements are not the same as the road use requirements.

FWIW

Road legal BBS02

hemo
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby hemo » 16 Nov 2017, 8:28pm

Although my first post here have to agree with Eddie.
There are only 2 legal BBS's both 01 or 01B versions they are factory stamped as 36 250w 15a or 36v 250w 25a. The factory settings/parameters are usually set to be very tame mainly to prevent controller issues and warranty claims, to get the best out of them you need to buy the programming lead and down load the free software.

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 17 Nov 2017, 12:41pm

hemo wrote:Although my first post here have to agree with Eddie.
There are only 2 legal BBS's both 01 or 01B versions they are factory stamped as 36 250w 15a or 36v 250w 25a. The factory settings/parameters are usually set to be very tame mainly to prevent controller issues and warranty claims, to get the best out of them you need to buy the programming lead and down load the free software.

So what's the 250w BBS02b about? Brighton ebikes seem to think it's legal. Plus it's stamped 36, 250w.
IFAIK there's no 'registry' of legal motors, simply a specification and if the manufacturer deem fit to manufacture it within the specification and stamp it on the bottom then why wouldn't it be legal?

(Not sure what 36v 15A or 36v 25A means since both are well over 250w!)

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hondated
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby hondated » 17 Nov 2017, 2:21pm

Just found this thread and found it interesting as its something I might do at some time, given age can definitely be wearing at times. Whilst clearly
Eddie is correct on the illegality of what kwackers is intending to do I must admit kwackers ideas are very appealing.
kwackers any chance of a bit more detail please re fitting and costs.
Its also been mentioned that other countries allow large motors to be fitted before they can be classed as a motor vehicle and what intrigues me is that several of them are European so, so much for being part of their community then !
Several months ago I watched on tv an electrical car being driven in France , oh yes I remember know being driven by that Paul Hollywood GBBO bloke, and it was mentioned that youngsters without even a driving licence were allowed to drive it.
So yet again another European country benefits from something we can't in the UK.
An anecdote on one of the reasons this adaptation seem s so appealing.
Last year I was struggling up yet another hill , hills = struggle , and suddenly from out of nowhere a fella on what looked like an old mountain bike flew past me. Of cause my first reaction was " how the heck is he doing that " but as I struggled on I eventually caught sight of him again as he had stopped further up on another hill. Hoping to catch up with him I pedalled on as fast as I could but suddenly I saw him remount his bike and clearly by the way he again disappeared very quickly it was clear to me he was using more than leg muscle to propel himself.
I don't know whether he was down here on holiday but I have never seen him again unfortunately to see whether I am correct in my appraisal of his cycling efforts.
I have also got to admit that after some of my toughest cycle rides a moped has become particularly appealing but have you seen the prices they are bringing these days.

kwackers
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby kwackers » 17 Nov 2017, 3:40pm

hondated wrote:kwackers any chance of a bit more detail please re fitting and costs.

The BBS01/02 is available as a 'kit' from most ebike suppliers. Cost is typically about £400.
For this you get the motor, a pair of brake levers (with cut off switches), a thumb throttle, the LCD display/controller a pair of cranks, chainwheel & cover.
Then you need a battery. All the legal versions of the kit run from 36v, however if you increase the voltage...
Battery is obviously dependent on where you want to fit it, capacity etc. Mine was 36v, 15Ah (and either Samsung or Panasonic cells - can't remember off the top of my head). This ran me something like £350(?)

Fitting is a doddle. First make sure the battery fits - otherwise you'll be riding around with a motor as a passenger.
I had to drill an extra hole in the aluminium mount for mine otherwise it was a tad too low on the bottle mounts.

Removing the pedals and bottom bracket is probably the hardest part. Mine were fairly solid from years of dirty commuting.
Once it's out and everything cleaned up, the motor simply slides in where the bearings would be. It's held in place by a nut and locknut.

Regarding the nut, I recommend a C spanner to tighten it up along with a soft mallet to make sure it's nice and tight. Most youtube videos seem to prefer the old chisel and hammer to get it tight but in my experience that's a bad idea and it's never tight enough.
I also had to fit a small plastic 'stop' to prevent the motor rotating up onto the frame (where it fouled the gear change cable).

You then fit the speedo sensor which is your standard magnet on spokes / sensor strapped to frame type gizmo (rear wheel fitting is ideal). This plugs into the motor.
Bolt on the cranks, chainwheel etc (I took the opportunity to strip and service everything, new chain & cassette etc). I removed the front derailleur (some folk leave it alone).
Bolt the LCD to the bars and route the cables.
At this point you can have a go.

That's pretty much as far as I got. I never bothered with the brake levers provided - although I've got some different sensors so I can use my original brakes at some point.
I also never fitted the thumb throttle.

So this evening will be my 3rd full week of ebike commuting and overall its going well. Time isn't much different to the train (although I miss reading stuff during my commute). I don't get too hot and sweaty - in fact I can control my temperature by controlling my effort which means normal clothes and even wet gear which previously I hated due to it's 'boil in the bag' characteristics.

At some point I'll sort out the brake cut off. The main problem with not having it is if you try to edge forward in traffic, the motor kicks in and tries to drive you forward. Obviously you can control it on the brake but it'd be much more civilised if you could simply stop the motor in the first place.

With regards legality. Speed limit can be adjusted up by the +10%. You can just turn it off - it's just a menu option. You could simply put in a wheel size in so that kph is mph which would give you 25mph and not be obvious to anyone without riding it or you could be a lot more underhand, hack the controller etc etc.

Power is a function of a number of things. Reprogramming the motor, upping the battery voltage etc etc. The badged power of the motor assumes certain things.

The BBS02 I linked to looks pretty good, plus it's got a 6v output for dynamo lights.

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hondated
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby hondated » 17 Nov 2017, 10:41pm

Thanks kwackers some great information there for when finances allow me to do it.

hemo
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby hemo » 17 Nov 2017, 11:52pm

kwackers wrote:
hemo wrote:Although my first post here have to agree with Eddie.
There are only 2 legal BBS's both 01 or 01B versions they are factory stamped as 36 250w 15a or 36v 250w 25a. The factory settings/parameters are usually set to be very tame mainly to prevent controller issues and warranty claims, to get the best out of them you need to buy the programming lead and down load the free software.

So what's the 250w BBS02b about? Brighton ebikes seem to think it's legal. Plus it's stamped 36, 250w.
IFAIK there's no 'registry' of legal motors, simply a specification and if the manufacturer deem fit to manufacture it within the specification and stamp it on the bottom then why wouldn't it be legal?

(Not sure what 36v 15A or 36v 25A means since both are well over 250w!)


I haven't spoken to Darren in along while.
It appears Bafang have redesignated the 25a 250w as a BBS02B. The ones about 18 moths ago available from Norway and Em3ev were BBS01/1B.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Taken the plunge.

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Nov 2017, 6:56am

The legality and getting caught are the same mentality as the "boy racer" who illegally modifies their Chavriolet

It is available, it can be done, and if you wish to take the risks of being caught then that is fine, don't bleat when you do get caught and the machine is confiscated