Small e-cars and e-bikes: please explain!

[rjb]

Mind you we've had milk floats and the like running off lead acid batteries for years so why couldn't we just upgrade these with liion batteries, seats instead of milk crates, lighter chassis etc. Problem solved.

[softlips]

Basically what they're saying is that the tightening of regs is making it too expensive to make small city cars whilst simultaneously cheap electric cars don't yet exist to fill the gap.

Yes, that was it.

It's not just the battery that costs, it's the technology as well, and no doubt that's the same across the size ranges. Smaller batteries are already in smaller cars, but the cars still cost 20grand.

Until you can readily buy a sub-1.5grand secondhand electric car, they VAST majority of the small car users will be driving older and older petrol and diesel models. The time will come, I have no doubt, but it'll be far too long IMHO.

Yes, this is it.

I think the restrictions on using older cars in towns and cities, or the surcharges of doing so will drove the market more quickly. Except of course for those who rarely travel to such places.

I used to average 55-65,000 per year! I got my new company hybrid in August 2018 and have only done just over 9000 miles in this time. Using the trains and a Brompton these days.

[kwackers]

Mind you we've had milk floats and the like running off lead acid batteries for years so why couldn't we just upgrade these with liion batteries, seats instead of milk crates, lighter chassis etc. Problem solved.

Nearly there.
Loads of people buying and modding old "retro" electric vehicles - not usually milk floats though.

Funnily enough first electric car I ever saw was in the 70's and that was a modified car that basically had a milk float drive and batteries in it.
Pretty weird to hear it clicking away when the guy pulled off.

[Xbigman]

There are some good points being made but the real problem is that no one makes an electric car, they all make petrol cars and fit electric motors to them. The first real attempt at a true electric car was the renault Twizzy. But even the Twizzy was aimed at a niche, short range market and not designed to have family appeal. A family version of the Twizzy with the latest technology and decent (220 miles +) range would be awesome. It would also be crucified in the Media. Pro car newspapers represent the big car manufacturers interests as it's they who pay for all the car adverts you see everywhere. The manufacturers want to maintain the big, heavy, expensive car culture because that's how they maximise their profits. That's a massive headwind to change. Change will come but its going to be a long slog.




Darren

[RickH]

... the real problem is that no one makes an electric car, they all make petrol cars and fit electric motors to them.

Apart from all Tesla models, Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf, Jaguar iPace (& probably others - IIRC Audi & Mercedes included) that have been designed as 100% battery electric from the start. VW are just launching the first of their ID fully electric range (& designed from scratch to be that way) as well.

OK, with the exception of Tesla, they all make other models that have combustion engines but not ICE versions of the ones I've listed.

[Cunobelin]

Renault Twizy.
Smart EQ.

There are quite a few "city" cars too.

Electric Mini.
Honda E.
Volkswagen E-Up
(Plus others I can't remember off the top of my head)

Then there are a number of now defunct models going all the way back to the 80's. Some of these have had their lead acid batteries replaced with modern tech and given a new lease of life. Most have the benefit of being small since battery tech mandated small. low power cars back then.

The real problem is public perception.
The Twizy is to my mind the perfect electric city car but most people think about small cars like the Mini as city cars.

If there was more choice would people buy them? They're easy and cheap to build (I bet the Chinese have loads) so in theory the only thing lacking are the consumers...

I like the Twizy, but I need to be able to carry an electric wheelchair, which limits the size of a car that I can have.

The other thing that was an issue was battery cost.I pay less on fuel for my small KIa, than I was being asked for battery hire for the Twizy

[kwackers]

The other thing that was an issue was battery cost.I pay less on fuel for my small KIa, than I was being asked for battery hire for the Twizy

The battery is a source of puzzlement on the Twizy. I could understand it if the cost was proportional to its size but you just know someone in marketing based it on the size of the car rather than the size of the battery.
Should be way cheaper than it is.

[hercule]

Low Tech Magazine published a couple of articles on velomobiles as low carbon transport options in 2010 and 2012

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/velomobiles/

Sadly we don’t seem to have come much further. Acknowledging that velomobiles can be awkward for the less able to get into, and the limitations of e-assist, the quadracycle a la Twizy should be much more common. It misses all the weight hogging features required if a vehicle slips into the “car” category and gives a better chance of making the most of a powerful electric motor in a lightweight body. It’s puzzling that there aren’t any other examples on the European market, but the crudeness of the Twizy doesn’t really make a convincing case to the public I suspect.

Sadly we have gone backwards. In the early 90’s I had various Citroen AXs - both petrol and diesel were by today’s standards still extraordinarily economical, my last (diesel) one would do 80mpg on a motorway run. Cars have just got more bloated and all the refinement in engine design has done is barely (or not at all) kept pace with the bloat.

[kwackers]

Low Tech Magazine published a couple of articles on velomobiles as low carbon transport options in 2010 and 2012

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/velomobiles/

Sadly we don’t seem to have come much further. Acknowledging that velomobiles can be awkward for the less able to get into, and the limitations of e-assist, the quadracycle a la Twizy should be much more common. It misses all the weight hogging features required if a vehicle slips into the “car” category and gives a better chance of making the most of a powerful electric motor in a lightweight body. It’s puzzling that there aren’t any other examples on the European market, but the crudeness of the Twizy doesn’t really make a convincing case to the public I suspect.

Sadly we have gone backwards. In the early 90’s I had various Citroen AXs - both petrol and diesel were by today’s standards still extraordinarily economical, my last (diesel) one would do 80mpg on a motorway run. Cars have just got more bloated and all the refinement in engine design has done is barely (or not at all) kept pace with the bloat.

Few interesting points.
Accelerating all the mass of a modern car is a real issue. In that respect EV's have an advantage because they can recoup some of that energy.
I watched a video the other day on YouTube where an EV climbed several miles up a mountain. The battery went from (around) 96% to 65%, on the way down the other side it went from 65% to 85%.

I've toyed with the idea of building my own EV but along the lines of a velomobile.
Hub motors make such a vehicle an temptingly easy proposition.
It's a while since I had any interest in "kit cars" and I don't know how the SVA stands, could one get such a primitive vehicle through SVA?

Comfortable 50mph top speed, weather protection and 100 mile range.
I'd be well into that.

[rjb]

Here we go a podride for the town commute.
http://www.jmk-innovation.se/?lang=en

https://youtu.be/4lKq1fGtXFM

[mjr]

Low Tech Magazine published a couple of articles on velomobiles as low carbon transport options in 2010 and 2012

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/velomobiles/

Sadly we don’t seem to have come much further. Acknowledging that velomobiles can be awkward for the less able to get into, and the limitations of e-assist, the quadracycle a la Twizy should be much more common. [...]

Interesting read. I agree that we've gone backwards. Partly it's about cost: most e-velomobiles cost more than a Twizy, which is itself not much less than a small petrol car and dearer than about four-fifths of http://www.atob.org.uk/electric-motorbi ... ice-guide/ - it's difficult to see that there's a mass market in that niche.

It has made me wonder about a related topic about fairings that seems utterly off-topic here, so I've posted at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132814

[Mick F]

... the real problem is that no one makes an electric car, they all make petrol cars and fit electric motors to them.

Apart from all Tesla models, Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf, Jaguar iPace (& probably others - IIRC Audi & Mercedes included) that have been designed as 100% battery electric from the start. VW are just launching the first of their ID fully electric range (& designed from scratch to be that way) as well.

OK, with the exception of Tesla, they all make other models that have combustion engines but not ICE versions of the ones I've listed.

Correct me if I'm wrong here .......

Zoe is basically a Clio. Probably same chassis ish and same running gear and suspension system.
Nissan Leaf is probably another Nissan basically ......... as above. Dunno much about Datsun.
No real idea about the others you've mentioned, but car manufacturers ALWAYS use the same tooling and production systems and it's easy for them to make one car after another after another using the same basic chassis and body shape.

Tesla was a new company setting out to produce nothing else than EVs.
There's nothing new other than the Twizzy from the "normal" car manufacturers.

[kwackers]

Correct me if I'm wrong here .......

Zoe is basically a Clio. Probably same chassis ish and same running gear and suspension system.
Nissan Leaf is probably another Nissan basically ......... as above. Dunno much about Datsun.
No real idea about the others you've mentioned, but car manufacturers ALWAYS use the same tooling and production systems and it's easy for them to make one car after another after another using the same basic chassis and body shape.

Tesla was a new company setting out to produce nothing else than EVs.
There's nothing new other than the Twizzy from the "normal" car manufacturers.

I think you are wrong although there may be arguable points with some models.

At the very least the above mentioned have different floor pans due to how the batteries mount. I'm sure some panels are reused but modern production lines are pretty good at making different cars simultaneously.
Usually for the same car size the EV versions have more space inside which suggests the cabin can't really be the same.

What's really missing is design changes - bit like how the first cars looked like horseless carriages, current EV's (Twizy excepted) tend to look like IC cars.
That may well change though, the new ID3 has a shorter bonnet and pushes the wheels more into the corners since it no longer has to support the mass of the engine and battery mass is much better distributed. So give it time...

[squeaker]

Low Tech Magazine published a couple of articles on velomobiles as low carbon transport options in 2010 and 2012

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/velomobiles/

"Electric Velomobiles: as Fast and Comfortable as Automobiles,..." if only IME the combination of limited / 'radial pneumatic' suspension and UK lack of road surface maintenance does not compare well with my automobile's inches of suspension travel and large low pressure tyres The speed deficit is down to the ancient engine

In the Twingo arena, the Microlino was showing promise (450kg, 55mph, 74m claimed range) but now seems in limbo due to 'production difficulties' so I wouldn't believe any price / delivery claims at present

[reohn2]

Idea.Take three or four of the most popular ICE powered smallish cars(Lupo.Fiesta,Ka,Corsa,etc) on the road in the past 5 years and plough some reseach inot how they can be converted to electric.
I would've thought that isn't such a huge task forthe right company.