Shimano steps system
Shimano steps system
How does it compare with Bosch anyone know?
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Re: Shimano steps system
you will find these guys very informative https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/
Re: Shimano steps system
They are fairly equally matched, my brother has a Bosch and Shimano E6000 flat bar road bike and last time we spoke of them he preferred the E6000.
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gregoryoftours
- Posts: 2234
- Joined: 22 May 2011, 7:14pm
Re: Shimano steps system
I've riddden bikes with bosch active line, bosch performance line and shimano steps systems. Shimano steps has more poke than active line, possibly a bit more than performance line too although the difference between those two is less marked. Steps, although hardly noisy, is noticeably louder motor noise than bosch. I prefer the power delivery of shimano, it feels a little smoother to me, although both the bosch and shimano mid drive units are a lot smoother in their delivery than any hub drive systems that I've tried.
Another thing to consider is gearing - we run a fleet of Raleigh motus tour with bosch active line and rear nexus 7sp hub gear/ derailleur. I find that if you want to go faster than low 20s mph on flat or downhill the nexus equipped models are under-geared at the top end, but the derailleur models are fine to the high 20s. (of course all of these systems will drop the electrical assist over about 15.5 mph)
One thing I'm not sold on as yet is the longevity of any of these expensive systems, both in terms of continuing product support for the drive systems/batteries and in terms of bearing lifespan inside the drive units. I have very limited experience with shimano, but certainly with our bosch fleet several instances of bearings well on the way out in under 2 years/<2000 miles, and the drive units are not made to be opened up and parts swapped out by mechanics, only to be removed from the bike, returned to the mother ship in Germany if within the guarantee period and un-opened. Even if the drive unit is replaced it will be take a good few weeks at the very least.
I don't know if the bearings are serviceable in the shimano drive units or not. It could be problematic making the drive units in a way that would allow bearings to be replaced in a straightforward way but at the moment the lifespan of the drive unit is effectively limited to the lifespan of a relatively unreliable bottom bracket!
Another thing to consider is gearing - we run a fleet of Raleigh motus tour with bosch active line and rear nexus 7sp hub gear/ derailleur. I find that if you want to go faster than low 20s mph on flat or downhill the nexus equipped models are under-geared at the top end, but the derailleur models are fine to the high 20s. (of course all of these systems will drop the electrical assist over about 15.5 mph)
One thing I'm not sold on as yet is the longevity of any of these expensive systems, both in terms of continuing product support for the drive systems/batteries and in terms of bearing lifespan inside the drive units. I have very limited experience with shimano, but certainly with our bosch fleet several instances of bearings well on the way out in under 2 years/<2000 miles, and the drive units are not made to be opened up and parts swapped out by mechanics, only to be removed from the bike, returned to the mother ship in Germany if within the guarantee period and un-opened. Even if the drive unit is replaced it will be take a good few weeks at the very least.
I don't know if the bearings are serviceable in the shimano drive units or not. It could be problematic making the drive units in a way that would allow bearings to be replaced in a straightforward way but at the moment the lifespan of the drive unit is effectively limited to the lifespan of a relatively unreliable bottom bracket!
Re: Shimano steps system
I share the concerns about issues (actual and potential) with Bosch and maybe Shimano systems.
Several people have made good comments (eg on Pedelcs forum) about https://www.performancelinebearings.com/ in Fordingbridge who can do (unofficial but apparently successful) overhauls to most (many?) issues at least with Bosch. I don't have any first hand knowledge of them.
Several people have made good comments (eg on Pedelcs forum) about https://www.performancelinebearings.com/ in Fordingbridge who can do (unofficial but apparently successful) overhauls to most (many?) issues at least with Bosch. I don't have any first hand knowledge of them.
Re: Shimano steps system
stodd wrote:I share the concerns about issues (actual and potential) with Bosch and maybe Shimano systems.
Several people have made good comments (eg on Pedelcs forum) about https://www.performancelinebearings.com/ in Fordingbridge who can do (unofficial but apparently successful) overhauls to most (many?) issues at least with Bosch. I don't have any first hand knowledge of them.
This is probably the best solution for when any warranty is no longer available as dealer/oem option will be more expensive.
Re: Shimano steps system
The issue with integrated-within-frame motors wearing prematurely and being difficult to service is several minus points in any calculation of the cost/benefits of the various e-bile motor systems. Add in their extra weight penalty (to the frame as much as the motor/battery) as well as their potential for becoming obsolete and there's some more minus points.
When the ladywife was looking for an e-bike the above factors were taken into consideration. All such integrated BB-motor systems were rejected in favour of either a hub-motor or some other easily removable or discrete system. She eventually chose a bike using the Fazua Evation system as the motor and battery are a module that can be dropped out or put back into the frame in a few seconds, leaving a bike that's an ordinary and rideable road bike, to all intents and purposes, if the battery/motor are left out.
The Fazua system does require a gearbox in the BB but it's essentially just a mechanical linkage from the motor drive sprocket to an ordinary chainset. It works with or without the motor in and takes a standard chainset with (I believe) an Octalink axle of some variety.
This modular approach to e-bike design - as opposed to a design with the motor integrated into the frame such that the bike can't be used without it's it - seems a far better approach to me. If an integrated BB motor goes wrong or becomes obsolete, so does the whole bike. The modular approach allows the use of not just the bike without it's motor/battery but also an easy upgrade to a better motor/battery should one be designed and include the same drive-interface (a simple three-stud rotating "cog" in the case of the Fazua Evation system).
Cugel
When the ladywife was looking for an e-bike the above factors were taken into consideration. All such integrated BB-motor systems were rejected in favour of either a hub-motor or some other easily removable or discrete system. She eventually chose a bike using the Fazua Evation system as the motor and battery are a module that can be dropped out or put back into the frame in a few seconds, leaving a bike that's an ordinary and rideable road bike, to all intents and purposes, if the battery/motor are left out.
The Fazua system does require a gearbox in the BB but it's essentially just a mechanical linkage from the motor drive sprocket to an ordinary chainset. It works with or without the motor in and takes a standard chainset with (I believe) an Octalink axle of some variety.
This modular approach to e-bike design - as opposed to a design with the motor integrated into the frame such that the bike can't be used without it's it - seems a far better approach to me. If an integrated BB motor goes wrong or becomes obsolete, so does the whole bike. The modular approach allows the use of not just the bike without it's motor/battery but also an easy upgrade to a better motor/battery should one be designed and include the same drive-interface (a simple three-stud rotating "cog" in the case of the Fazua Evation system).
Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
John Maynard Keynes
Re: Shimano steps system
Cugel wrote:The issue with integrated-within-frame motors wearing prematurely and being difficult to service is several minus points in any calculation of the cost/benefits of the various e-bile motor systems. Add in their extra weight penalty (to the frame as much as the motor/battery) as well as their potential for becoming obsolete and there's some more minus points.
When the ladywife was looking for an e-bike the above factors were taken into consideration. All such integrated BB-motor systems were rejected in favour of either a hub-motor or some other easily removable or discrete system. She eventually chose a bike using the Fazua Evation system as the motor and battery are a module that can be dropped out or put back into the frame in a few seconds, leaving a bike that's an ordinary and rideable road bike, to all intents and purposes, if the battery/motor are left out.
The Fazua system does require a gearbox in the BB but it's essentially just a mechanical linkage from the motor drive sprocket to an ordinary chainset. It works with or without the motor in and takes a standard chainset with (I believe) an Octalink axle of some variety.
This modular approach to e-bike design - as opposed to a design with the motor integrated into the frame such that the bike can't be used without it's it - seems a far better approach to me. If an integrated BB motor goes wrong or becomes obsolete, so does the whole bike. The modular approach allows the use of not just the bike without it's motor/battery but also an easy upgrade to a better motor/battery should one be designed and include the same drive-interface (a simple three-stud rotating "cog" in the case of the Fazua Evation system).
Cugel
This is a really interesting discussion. Part of the appeal of ebikes is the environmental factor but if ebikes have a short shelf life then that's out the window.
Re: Shimano steps system
1982john wrote:This is a really interesting discussion. Part of the appeal of ebikes is the environmental factor but if ebikes have a short shelf life then that's out the window.
Depends what it's replacing.
If you replace car miles then you probably don't need that many before there's an environmental benefit.
FWIW, my Bafang has done around 20,000 miles with no servicing and the original battery.
Easy to service, readily available parts. Not as quick as Cugels replacement but I reckon I could turn it back into a bicycle in about 20 mins - remove pedal, remove ring nut, slide motor out and unplug. Slide in old BB and attach pedals.
(Add another 10-15 mins if you want to remove the 'dash' and battery fittings)
I think the biggest enemy of ebikes is lack of use.