Road Legal Mid drive kit

[lowrider]

Kwackers post

stodd wrote:
For lots more on this topic, see https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ces.35927/

Lots more hearsay it seems.

I think the debate here is not whether it's possible to bypass the controller on an ebike (it is) but how the ease with which you can do this affects it's legality.
That's not covered by that thread (lots of debate about the legality of the bike but given the charges I think it's a no brainer that it was illegal).

I agree a lot of it was just waffle, maybe the posters were trying to justify their own conversions in some way but it was of little help to anyone looking for some clarity.

I don't know much about the "dongle" they speak of, not sure if that's a figure of speech or a physical thing.
It sounds suspiciously like something that plugs into the controller to remove the limitations. (If so I wonder why he didn't simply unplug it and throw it away...)

There was no mention of a dongle, its not really relevant it was a non compliant bike, a label and that is the danger. Something simple like an offroad switch (you didn't know existed) or a 1000w motor it all means non compliant.

Given all controllers can be tweaked the ease thing is of interest to me.
It's a pretty grey area, on one side you have obvious things like a switch all the way through to having to plug it into a PC and reconfigure it.

I don't believe anything not on the bike when ridden would count, only if its apart of it, the potential to be modified off the bike wouldn't come into it. You could modify a car potentially but your insurance would not be affected unless you do. As for the controls I wish to test that and find a way if I can.

On mine you can change the wheel size via a setup mode which requires some mucking about with buttons whilst turning it on - not something you can do whilst riding it.
There's also a hidden menu that isn't mentioned in the manual (but you can Google) which allows you to set the speed limit and loads of other stuff.
For me its something that's moot anyway because a bug(?) in the controller means if you set the assist to max and pedal whilst holding the throttle fully open the speed limit is ignored anyway (and I'm convinced the motor goes into some high power mode).

Its there and no matter if you find it difficult to use it could be used as a switch. With a little practice I think I could master the switch on the Vlcd5 controller quite easily. Don't think it would take more than 20 seconds, 10 of those would be holding the buttons to access the menu.

I'd like to say I never use it but tbh it's far too handy for the occasional overtake although it hammers the battery so its not something you'd do continually plus I actually want to peddle and holding the thumb throttle open for any length of time is uncomfortable.

I would like to have one, I have seen it in a forum somewhere that its ok to put them on a conversion however I have not seen it on any of the online guides that it is. I would like it as a get you home mode but that's a question for another day unless someone can enlighten me.

Some commercial ebikes have off-road modes - how does that work?

Don't know, if they do they are illegal and not e bikes as far as the law sees it.

It's a can of worms and personally I think the speed limit is nonsense, speed is intrinsically limited by power and limiting the speed the assist cuts out doesn't limit the speed of the bicycle, I've regularly seen speeds in excess of 40-45kph on mine long before I fitted the motor but it's never been that fast since I did

I believe that its less than a can of worms than some people think, its just difficult to get real information. A lot of people just buy whats available, a great deal of the time venders don't give the details on what their selling. I think its easy for complete bikes,one bought from one of the big bike companies would be fine because they have to comply with standards.

The problem is with conversions many of the venders are located abroad and do they know or care, in those cases you have to take responsibility. You know it shouldn't be over 250w, it should be stamped with the rating, there shouldn't be a road switch or that it could go past 15.5mph assisted. If you buy one that isnt knowingly or unknowingly and fit it then your bike is illegal. It doesn't matter if that's all that's is availiable you take the responsibility to find out.

I think it would be great if it were legal to have 45kph. However in countries that have speed e bikes, bikes capable of assisted speeds greater than 15.5mph must carry insurance. That would mean more scrutiny on compliance not only by the law but by the insurance companies. You would also be breaking the law if your normal but modified bike could go past 15.5mph assisted without fully complying with the speed bike standards which might also make it un insurable. It might not make things easier.

[kwackers]

...nonsense, speed is intrinsically limited by power and limiting the speed the assist cuts out doesn't limit the speed of the bicycle, I've regularly seen speeds in excess of 40-45kph on mine long before I fitted the motor but it's never been that fast since I did

I don't understand that last point. I regularly - weather, weight, terrain and fitness permitting - see such speeds. Of course the motive power is my own beyond the 25kph offered by the assistance of pedelec.

All I'm saying is that speed is a function of power (all other things; terrain, wind etc being equal).
A strong rider can go faster than a weak rider, a fit rider can go faster for longer etc.

If the bike carried no speed limits then the square law of wind resistance soon takes effect. Having played with mine it would struggle under it's own power to get to 20mph.
Compare that to the bike sans motor which with just my own input was around the same speed. Together I reckon we can get nearer 25mph.

In essence what I'm saying is the speed limit is a bit of a red herring. I'm not sure what its meant to accomplish but its reality is just to drop the average speed by a few mph and in return it creates unnecessary complexity in the underlying laws and since it's easy to defeat also creates an entire class of new villains.
I'm simply not convinced there's a good cost / benefit ratio here.

So I think that the 250w limit is enough on it's own.
It's also a lot easier to police, in that the bigger motors are usually a lot more obvious than their smaller brethren. When you see a guy going down the road whose entire wheel looks like a hub motor you know full well that's not 250w.

We're at a great point in tech now where it's possible to replace cars with easy to use lightweight electric vehicles.
I personally would like to see the speed limit removed from 250w bikes. I'd like to see the larger class of "electric moped" rules changed to insurance only, i.e. drop the registration, licence and MOT requirements and I'd like to see electric scooters made legal with similar limits to e-bikes (or perhaps 150w limit?).

[Polisman]

Its estimated in Germany that they've been able to take 255 million car journeys off the road each year since the speed limit was made 45km/h for ebikes (there's no insurance, nothing on ebikes at this rating).45km/h is not a speed ebike. These bikes are capable of 65km/h + and are mostly intended for off road use.

If similar governments throughout Europe see this kind of evolution of the ebike vis a vis viable mass transit (and the potential to replace most, if not all city journeys under 10km), they'll move quickly.

Its a simple matter of economics: less cars on the road =less spend on road networks and infrastructure. A dramatic reduction in air pollution and a fitter population. It would have to be an extremely idiotic and near sighted administration did not see the benefits and follow suit. Like most technologies, when governments see the advantages, they move fast to legislate. Brexit, in all its complexity has probably put the brakes (pardon the pun) on a whole raft of good ideas.

[willcee]

A matter of economics it may well be.. and your glowing description of the administration is certainly ....well.??.. based on their most unaccomplished handling of the current problem.. and whomever gets the reins in the election gran prix I would wager money that they won't ever get near such a straightforward as you allude.. simple.. benefical to all ...way of reducing all manner of issues with environments current and future , yet they will find a way to tax the motorist and the homeowner and spin it all to a waiting media who will grab and misconstrue ...all truly fed up with the Brexit mess which they have trailed in front of the nation for well over 3 years... grumpy old boy.. will

[random37]

As a casual cyclist, I don't want to share facilities with a vehicle that could reach 45km/h, powered or unpowered. But then, a vehicle of that turn of speed can't mix it up with cars. I would feel much safer on a 650cc moped than a 50cc one going up hills.

I think fossil fuel cars will become really expensive over the next couple of years. And electric cars will always be expensive. The cost of producing electric bikes should be really, really low compared to the price of an electric car. It's going to come, for me it can't come quickly enough. I'd drop my car in a heartbeat if I could.

[hemo]

The OEM bikes using Bosch, Yamaha & Steps being the three main players won't lower their prices but eventually may have to once the Bafang equivalent OEM bikes become more common place, at the mo they are few and far between but should in time become available.

[kwackers]

As a casual cyclist, I don't want to share facilities with a vehicle that could reach 45km/h, powered or unpowered. But then, a vehicle of that turn of speed can't mix it up with cars. I would feel much safer on a 650cc moped than a 50cc one going up hills.

Everything that moves is powered, it's just the mechanism that changes.

(Apologies for my pedantic post. )

[billym444]

heres the thing, weather an after market 250w kit is legal or not doesnt really matter. set it at 15.5mph and if you get stopped claim you didnt know about the hidden menu, if your restricted to 15.5mph your probably wont ever be stopped and if you are and the person who stops you knows how to check the speed menu, is set at the legal limit. 15.5 is a bit silly anyway as most half fit cyclest can beat that. as well as the 15.5mph is assisted theres no law to say you cant go faster on peddle power.

let be honest the idoits how get stopped will be doing 30mph on a mountain bike on a public road. your gonna get stopped.

[Vorpal]

In Germany and Norway the pedelec limit is 45km/h

I think (but ???) that that is the Fast pedelecs (S-pedelecs) regulation, and does require some license or insurance or something. Difficult enough to sort out what UK regulations are; I certainly don't the details of German and Norwegian ones.

No licence or insurance required in Germany. 45km/h is the agreed limit. I have German friends and they rave about the popularity of ebikes over there, so far they have replaced 35% of all car ourneys under 30km in Berlin. Its high time the British followed suit.

I missed this when it was first posted...

In Germany, anything over 25 kph is classed as 'S-pedelec' and requires registration, licence, and insurance. Any moped or driving licence is sufficient. And 'tuning' or changing over the bike to exceed the previous speed limiter is illegal. https://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/e-b ... 43274.html

in Norway, it is similar, although the licencing is a little more complex. But basically, anyone born since 1985 must have at least a moped licence to operate a pedelec that can assist over 25 kph. In addition, it is specifically illegal to drive them on any off-road facility, including shared use facilities, mountain bike trails, and anywhere else where motorised vehicles are banned or limited. https://www.dinside.no/fritid/slik-sykl ... l/69563530