Raising the Speed limits

[reohn2]

I don't. I find the biggest critics of any alternative form of non polluting transport (including ordinary bicycles) is from motorists who are terrified that one day they will have to give up their gas guzzling car.

Jeremy Clarkson? I rest my case.

I've never interacted with Clarkson. I do know his views but he doesn't relay them to me. On here, however, and in everyday life I come across some severe condemnation.

Clarkson has, on several well publicised occasions stated his hatred, not dislike, but hatred of cyclists. An odious character to be sure, but not unrepresentative of the car driving fraternity as a whole. Any challenge to the supremacy of the car must be thwarted. And a fast ebike, which can compete on city and town journey times is exactly that. A threat.

Whilst I agree about Clarkson,I disagree the car driving community as a whole 'hate cyclists',not my impression at all,the vast majority are courteous and respect my presence on the road however there is IME a growing element who don't respect cyclists presence.

[kwackers]

The problem is the monkey doing the driving,imagine the same monkeys without training with two less wheels and what are quite fast accelerating e-bikes in city and town centres amongst pedestrians.
Such machines with some training would also need to be restricted to roads only,not cyclepath/lane and not bridleways.

There are also easy e-bike electronics manipulation to exceed their parameters,which would I should imagine be just as easy with a 30mph e-bike.

Mopeds aren't fast accelerating.
If you look at the video I posted of the scooter rider who nearly took me out it took him 30m before he was able to catch me up and I wasn't trying that hard - and that wasn't a moped that scooter was a 125.

So imo the real issue is the artificial speed limitation on ebikes, it makes no real sense and is one extra thing to police.
A 250w motor neither accelerates hard nor would be that fast. Playing with mine suggests without my input 20mph is about the best on a flat road I could expect. With me pedalling it might do 25.

Similarly if you had a 750w limited 'moped' then you'd do 30mph - it's even possible with the wind behind you that you'd see 40 - but that's not much different to what I could manage a few years ago on my pedal bike.

My point basically is don't try to add too many limitations. Pick the maximum power you want the vehicle to have and everything falls in place, does anyone genuinely care if a I pedal frantically on my 750w bike and manage to get it to 40mph?
Does anyone care if I use a bit of extra assistance on my current 250w bike to ride comfortably at 20mph?

Policing power is a lot easier than policing electronic restrictions.
I've no problems with higher powered e-bikes being road use only, I just feel as though there's a hole in the regulations that I could and would use which would make it more likely I'd continue using an ebike and if it's true for me it's unlikely I'm the only one.

At the moment there's a huge step up from an ebike to a motorbike and nothing in the middle, I don't see that it's wrong to think that hole could be filled sensibly.

[PH]

All they have done in France is quite sensibly limit the speed to 25km/h and ban more than one person carriage.

Whilst at the same time you're advocating raising it for bikes!

And what's a scooter got to do with ebikes? Absolutely nothing. Save the battery.

It wasn't me that raised them, but IMO they have more to do with e-bikes than electric motorbikes do.

motorist free cities, it's all ready to roll. You're just going to have to learn to love it!

learn to love it? There's nothing to learn. But why wait for this fantasy future, start now, get rid of your car, or at the very least stop using it for those short journeys that could so easily be done without it. Why wait for someone else to take some action, put your money where your mouth is and just do it.

[reohn2]

Kwackers
I understand your POV but don't necessarily agree with it in total,responsible users of 30mph e-bikes would be just that,it's the irresponsible ones that I'm concerned with,and the total lack of traffic (or any kind FTM) of policing in modern day UK.

I reckon a 500 or 750w e-bike on the throttle and pedal could be or made to be,PDQ off the mark.

[Polisman]

All they have done in France is quite sensibly limit the speed to 25km/h and ban more than one person carriage.

Whilst at the same time you're advocating raising it for bikes!

And what's a scooter got to do with ebikes? Absolutely nothing. Save the battery.

It wasn't me that raised them, but IMO they have more to do with e-bikes than electric motorbikes do.

motorist free cities, it's all ready to roll. You're just going to have to learn to love it!

learn to love it? There's nothing to learn. But why wait for this fantasy future, start now, get rid of your car, or at the very least stop using it for those short journeys that could so easily be done without it. Why wait for someone else to take some action, put your money where your mouth is and just do it.

I'm not applauding French law making! Your logic is pretty bizarre sir! I'm against any legislation that restricts the growth of cycling and by extension the ebike.
A scooter is not an ebike. There's no physical effort or input. To suggest they are the same is bordering on the ridiculous.

An ebike, as stated above could easily bridge the gap between push bike and motorbike and could take 100's of thousands of not millions of cars journeys off the road.

As stated numerous times previously (do you actually read my posts, or just make up your ideas to suit your own ideology, oblivious to reasoned argument ?) I have an ebike, but its not sufficiently fast enough to compete with car journeys in the hilly terrain in which I live. If I had a bike of sufficient fast assist I would ditch my car overnight. I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph.

Times change and the law has to change with them. I'd gladly pay insurance and wear a helmet if I could replace my car as a viable, and swift means of transport.

[reohn2]

An ebike, as stated above could easily bridge the gap between push bike and motorbike and could take 100's of thousands of not millions of cars journeys off the road.

....... I have and ebike, but its not sufficiently fast enough to compete with car journeys in the hilly terrain in which I live. If I had a bike of sufficient fast assist I would ditch my car overnight.

Like Kwackers you're posting as one person,the fact is that most people won't leave the car at home or sell it in favour of an e-bike whatever it's speed limit.
It's the convenience of the car that keeps people using them,remove that convenience and people will choose an alternative means of transport but don't hold your breath on even 30% of people choosing two wheels over four with a heater music and a roof over there heads.
Most people would choose good public transport were it in place over a buy and ride 30mph e-bike.

I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph

It would if you gave the journey ample time

Times change and the law has to change with them. I'd gladly pay insurance and wear a helmet if I could replace my car as a viable, and swift means if transport.

You're one in a million.
The key word is convenience and in the absence of anything better the most convenient means of transport for many in modern day UK is the private motor car,more so in inclement weather.

[kwackers]

I reckon a 500 or 750w e-bike on the throttle and pedal could be or made to be,PDQ off the mark.

750w is 1hp.
A typical moped is more like 3hp (possibly more I haven't looked for a while).

Have you ridden one?
I have - well a 500w mid drive with throttle. IME most of the acceleration comes from the legs not from the motor.
The other thing I noticed when having a go is that I could maintain a comfortable 25mph on the flat although it required a fair bit of input from me.

[mattheus]

So, a summary:

- Giving people a minimal-cost upgrade from 15mph to 30mph will increase safety hazards on our roads.

- Getting people out of their cars will reduce hazards on our roads.

Fair??

(The tricky bit is working out which will happen more, and choosing the exact rules to influence this.)

[kwackers]

Like Kwackers you're posting as one person,the fact is that most people won't leave the car at home or sell it in favour of an e-bike whatever it's speed limit.
It's the convenience of the car that keeps people using them,remove that convenience and people will choose an alternative means of transport but don't hold your breath on even 30% of people choosing two wheels over four with a heater music and a roof over there heads.
Most people would choose good public transport were it in place over a buy and ride 30mph e-bike.

Just to point out that's two of us in a fairly small sample size.
The problem of course is we don't know because we don't try.

I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph

It would if you gave the journey ample time

When you're commuting journey time is all.
I could not use my ebike at all and add 40 minutes a day to my commute. I could walk and add several hours.
The ebike makes it take just a few minutes longer door to door than the train and 20 mins longer than the car.
Is it wrong to want to be able to get to work in the same time as I could in the car using a simple, cheap and non-complex form of transport?

The key word is convenience and in the absence of anything better the most convenient means of transport for many in modern day UK is the private motor car,more so in inclement weather.

So you prefer more cars rather than try something that possibly might work and if it didn't then nothing would change anyway (apart from me and apparently Polisman who'd both be ebiking to work but a bit faster).

[reohn2]

I reckon a 500 or 750w e-bike on the throttle and pedal could be or made to be,PDQ off the mark.

750w is 1hp.
A typical moped is more like 3hp (possibly more I haven't looked for a while).

Have you ridden one?
I have - well a 500w mid drive with throttle. IME most of the acceleration comes from the legs not from the motor.
The other thing I noticed when having a go is that I could maintain a comfortable 25mph on the flat although it required a fair bit of input from me.

TBH I was pleasantly (shockingly if you like) surprised with the acceleration of our 250w tandem one up with it's acceleration off the mark.
To be clear I'm talking about acceleration from ordinary stand car traffic say from a TL and not purposefully racing against someone in a car who's trying.
Power to weight has a lot to do with it ie; Mrs R2 used to own a Micra,1.0ltre which was surprisingly fast upto about 30mph,I think it's the same with e-bikes,I emphasise once again I'm not talking about outright racing from the mark just moving quickly from a standing start.

[reohn2]

So, a summary:

- Giving people a minimal-cost upgrade from 15mph to 30mph will increase safety hazards on our roads.

- Getting people out of their cars will reduce hazards on our roads.

Fair??

(The tricky bit is working out which will happen more, and choosing the exact rules to influence this.)

Agreed.
And is a conudrum.

[PH]

I'm not applauding French law making! Your logic is pretty bizarre sir! I'm against any legislation that restricts the growth of cycling and by extension the ebike.

You called it sensible, do you read your own posts?

A scooter is not an ebike. There's no physical effort or input. To suggest they are the same is bordering on the ridiculous.

They serve the same purpose, you're frequently making comparisons between vehicle types, is that only when it suite your argument?

An ebike, as stated above could easily bridge the gap between push bike and motorbike and could take 100's of thousands of not millions of cars journeys off the road.
As stated numerous times previously (do you actually read my posts, or just make up your ideas to suit your own ideology, oblivious to reasoned argument ?) I have an ebike, but its not sufficiently fast enough to compete with car journeys in the hilly terrain in which I live. If I had a bike of sufficient fast assist I would ditch my car overnight. I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph.

Excuses, excuses, I've asked several times what you think the time saving would be on your 10 mile car trips. Google maps does a reasonable job of estimating it. 5 miles across town for me is a consistent 30 min by bike, by car it's 18 min in the daytime and between 20 - 35 in the busy periods. Would you like the facts about the average speed of urban traffic? They're not hard to find. It's not legislation that's holding anyone back, it's the idea that it isn't possible, they come from you , not me.

[PH]

I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph

It would if you gave the journey ample time

When you're commuting journey time is all.
I could not use my ebike at all and add 40 minutes a day to my commute. I could walk and add several hours.
The ebike makes it take just a few minutes longer door to door than the train and 20 mins longer than the car.
Is it wrong to want to be able to get to work in the same time as I could in the car using a simple, cheap and non-complex form of transport?

This is true, though for you there's other options like an electric motorbike, you just don't want the faff, which I think you overstate anyway.
But you give no explanation why people are not using e-bikes in their current form for the hundreds of thousands of short journeys a day that are done by car and would be at least as quick by bike. I can see why you'd want the law changed to suit you, but the idea that it'll tempt lots of other people out of their cars isn't borne out by the evidence we already have.

[kwackers]

This is true, though for you there's other options like an electric motorbike, you just don't want the faff, which I think you overstate anyway.
But you give no explanation why people are not using e-bikes in their current form for the hundreds of thousands of short journeys a day that are done by car and would be at least as quick by bike. I can see why you'd want the law changed to suit you, but the idea that it'll tempt lots of other people out of their cars isn't borne out by the evidence we already have.

I don't want or need another vehicle - why can't I just swap out the motor on my current bike?

The faff is that a 750w ebike is a motorbike when it absolutely isn't, not by any stretch of the imagination.
It's ludicrous to expect a bicycle fitted with such a motor to have to go through SVA, be registered, fitted with plates, taxed, insured and then put the rider through hours of training when they're unlikely to be as quick on it as a decent club rider.

You say the evidence that they'll replace cars isn't borne out, but why do you think that?
I can remember a thread only a few years ago on here where the majority claimed ebikes served no purpose and they'd just be a niche (not me I might add, I was very much an advocate despite not having one).
How wrong they were. Sales are soaring, almost every other bike I see in Liverpool is an ebike.

So why not capitalise on this success and introduce something a step up like lots of other countries to attract even more people?

After all if you're right and there's no demand then what have you got to lose? There'll be none out there.
Or perhaps all those illegal ones that are apparently riding round are an indication that the demand actually is there and your assumption is plainly wrong.

[reohn2]

Like Kwackers you're posting as one person,the fact is that most people won't leave the car at home or sell it in favour of an e-bike whatever it's speed limit.
It's the convenience of the car that keeps people using them,remove that convenience and people will choose an alternative means of transport but don't hold your breath on even 30% of people choosing two wheels over four with a heater music and a roof over there heads.
Most people would choose good public transport were it in place over a buy and ride 30mph e-bike.

Just to point out that's two of us in a fairly small sample size.

Which is a sample of enthuaitic cyclists not the general car owning public

I need to get to work on time and in a reasonable state. That's not going to happen on an ebike that does 15mph

It would if you gave the journey ample time

When you're commuting journey time is all.

That being the case why do so many people choose the car for what are very short journeys?
I suggest because it's comfortable and convenient.
Over short traffic laden TL ridden journeys I can beat cars,on the open road not so.

I could not use my ebike at all and add 40 minutes a day to my commute

Then why doesn't everyone do it?
How much more time would you save with a 30mph e-bike.

The ebike makes it take just a few minutes longer door to door than the train and 20 mins longer than the car

People choose the car out of convenience.

Is it wrong to want to be able to get to work in the same time as I could in the car using a simple, cheap and non-complex form of transport?

No.
Your argument is in some ways a sound one but not in others,the vast majority of people IMHO will not abandon their cars for e-bikes even 30mph ones.

The key word is convenience and in the absence of anything better the most convenient means of transport for many in modern day UK is the private motor car,more so in inclement weather.

So you prefer more cars rather than try something that possibly might work and if it didn't then nothing would change anyway (apart from me and apparently Polisman who'd both be ebiking to work but a bit faster).

No I don't prefer more cars,but I don't believe 30mph e-bikes will change that one bit TBH,the e-bike laws and decent cycle infrastructure might go some way in that direcrion,along with good cheap,clean public transport,and a ban on cars in towns and cities.

EDITED for clarity,typos and grammer