Effort or Speed?

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
Jdsk
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Jdsk » 27 Jun 2020, 8:44pm

Mick F wrote:Why should you be able to ride it easier and faster than a fit cyclist on a similar - but non-electric - bike?

What does "should" mean? Physics, legislation, some sort of moral hierarchy?

Jonathan

Greenbuilder
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Greenbuilder » 27 Jun 2020, 9:04pm

There is a difference in how ebikes deliver their assistance; Hub motors will get the bike to 15.5mph quite rapidly, the wheel being driven directly. They struggle a bit on steep hills. Mid-drives operate through the gears, like a motorcycle and therefore are more suitable for those hills. Some Mid-drives use torque sensors which respond to the rider putting more effort through the pedals with more power.
The actual torque figures for 250w motors seem to go from 40Nm to over 80Nm, useful to know if you need a bike with plenty of low down 'grunt' for lugging heavy panniers or a trailer

reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jun 2020, 12:17am

Mick F wrote:Ok, I'm losing the argument here! :D

That'll be about right :wink:

Why should you be able to ride it easier and faster than a fit cyclist on a similar - but non-electric - bike?

Why shouldn't you?
The idea is for the e-bike to assist your power,there are a few levels of assistance depending on the e-bike system used,the maximum level will give maximum power the motor can offer at cost of greater battery drain,that's how it works as I'm sure you're aware,and the battery has a limited range after which yer on yer own with no assistance.

To answer your question,it's because the idea is to iron out the hills,because,unlike you who likes hills,not everyone does.
It's why e-bikes are becoming popular,becuase only enthusiastic cyclists actually like climbing hills slowly and unassisted,which means that it's not so much e-bikes going fast than you,more a case of you going slower than them :)
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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 28 Jun 2020, 7:56am

Ok.
I give in!
:D
Mick F. Cornwall

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bob simpson
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby bob simpson » 28 Jun 2020, 9:21am

Don't give in , give it a try. You could always turn the power off if your not suffering enough or starting to enjoy yourself.

rfryer
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby rfryer » 28 Jun 2020, 10:43am

Mick F wrote:Why are eBikes speed limited in assistance and not effort limited in assistance?
If they were effort limited, I could see their appeal.
As they are, they take away the joy of climbing hills for me at least.

It seems to me that eBikes are speed limited for legislative reasons, and because it's an easy concept to understand.

However, most are also power limited, by means of a control that puts then in a mode such as "eco", "tour", "turbo", etc. The fact that most riders round you seem to be favouring the more powerful settings would indicate that your idea of the joy of cycling is out of kilter with that of most eBikers.

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al_yrpal
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby al_yrpal » 28 Jun 2020, 11:15am

As soon as its allowed and its sensible I will take a trip to Gunnislake with my ebike and encourage Mick to mount it and have a ride on Gunnislake's killer hills. Education process! :D :lol:

I ride my ebike for fitness and hardly ever use Sport or Turbo modes. Like Mick, I like hills but without volts I wouldnt manage many of the stinkers around here.

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. Make a difference...

reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 28 Jun 2020, 11:18am

rfryer wrote:
Mick F wrote:Why are eBikes speed limited in assistance and not effort limited in assistance?
If they were effort limited, I could see their appeal.
As they are, they take away the joy of climbing hills for me at least.

It seems to me that eBikes are speed limited for legislative reasons, and because it's an easy concept to understand.

However, most are also power limited, by means of a control that puts then in a mode such as "eco", "tour", "turbo", etc. The fact that most riders round you seem to be favouring the more powerful settings would indicate that your idea of the joy of cycling is out of kilter with that of most eBikers.

My bold.
But it isn't for them because there's a good chance that without e-assistance the majority wouldn't have cocked their leg over a bicycle saddle in the first place,I firmly believe cycling gains enormously from the e-bike because of that.

The more people on bikes,e-assist or not,means more recognition for cycling generally and with it cycling friendly infrastructure and better treatment of cyclist on UK roads.
It will come and e-bikes will be a large part of it,I'm already seeing more motorists being more careful when I'm out on the bike abd more cyclists than I've ever seen on UK roads.
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PH
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby PH » 28 Jun 2020, 11:36am

Mick F wrote:Ok.
I give in!
:D

Rather than giving in, I think you ought to try one, well more than one and not just round the block, but ideally some decent rides on a variety of models.
What's often assumed is that the motor dictates the ride, the experience of those regular E-Bike riders I've discussed it with (And my own limited experience) is that the opposite is true and the assistance is under the control of the rider. A regular rider I know who has variable levels of health and fitness, rides the same loop once a week most weeks, at roughly the same speed, they'll use anywhere between 20 - 80% battery capacity depending on their own contribution.
I cycle for lots of reasons, if I were to write down the top ten, it becomes obvious that using an E-bike it would make no difference to at least seven of them. I'm not going to start telling people what they should put on their list, or accept them telling me what to put on mine.

Jdsk
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Jdsk » 28 Jun 2020, 11:55am

reohn2 wrote:The more people on bikes,e-assist or not,means more recognition for cycling generally and with it cycling friendly infrastructure and better treatment of cyclist on UK roads.

This is a very important point, and a wonderful opportunity.

Jonathan

Oldjohnw
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Oldjohnw » 28 Jun 2020, 12:05pm

Without assist I would hardly get away from my front door. Once going and up the immediate hill I reduce power to 1 or 0. But it is hilly in north Northumberland.
John

Gangzoom
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Gangzoom » 30 Jun 2020, 8:54pm

Mick F wrote:Ok.
I give in!
:D


There's nothing to give in about. Back in 2013 I was really into cycling, just done LEJOG, top 3 on a few local Strava segments. But than life took over, now have a 4 year old daughter time is precious.

I bought an eBike to motivate my self back into cycling, been an eBike I can push as hard or little as I want, rain/wind/sun I've been commuting to work on it instead of driving since the end of Feb.

At the weekends I go out for a 2hr ride on my 'proper' road bike (non electric), to my surprise just cycling a few miles a day 5 days a week has really built up my fitness.

So much so last weekend I decided to try and hit 1000m of climbing up doing laps up the largest hill in Leicester - 1 mile average 6% with some 12% bits, not much but its the longest hill around here. The last time I did this was in preparing for the LEJOG with 7 years younger legs.....and I managed it (on my road bike) :).

Image

I also see so many more people out on bikes than back in 2013. I don't care if they are on eBike, cheapo £100 bikes, or trying to catch me in their TeamSky gear, the more people on bikes the better.

My eBike has enabled me to enjoy my road bike much more, and that is a good thing!

Bonzo Banana
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Bonzo Banana » 1 Jul 2020, 8:58am

Greenbuilder wrote:There is a difference in how ebikes deliver their assistance; Hub motors will get the bike to 15.5mph quite rapidly, the wheel being driven directly. They struggle a bit on steep hills. Mid-drives operate through the gears, like a motorcycle and therefore are more suitable for those hills. Some Mid-drives use torque sensors which respond to the rider putting more effort through the pedals with more power.
The actual torque figures for 250w motors seem to go from 40Nm to over 80Nm, useful to know if you need a bike with plenty of low down 'grunt' for lugging heavy panniers or a trailer


You get geared and direct drive hub motors, the geared hub motors are far more common and they have 3 planetary gears that increase torque and reduce hub speed in a similar way to a mid-drive motor just not as extreme. Also Suntour do a hub motor system with a torque sensor so senses rider power just like most mid-drive motors. I've seen a small direct drive hub motor that only offered about 15Nm torque but a similar motor with the planetary gears was up to 40-45Nm.

Also its important to point out that mid-drive motors often have the weakest smallest motors but are over-geared for the highest torque. The torque rating they give are at the crank normally. That means if you have a 42t chainring and 42t largest rear cog you have a 1:1 ratio and the torque rating would be as stated minus about 3-4Nm torque lost in the chain. So if they state 80Nm with 42:42t that would be about 76Nm but the same motor with a 42T chainring and 32T largest cog would be about 57Nm after power loss through the chain and that would be its highest possible torque rating for that bike. In higher gears the torque would be far lower for the highest gear, i.e. 11:42t would be about 17Nm I think after power loss through the chain. This is why mid-drive motors work better in the real world because they deliver power when you need it but sadly they are the most complicated motors too which means more reliability and service issues than hub motors generally.

stodd
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby stodd » 1 Jul 2020, 10:12am

Bonzo Banana wrote:Also Suntour do a hub motor system with a torque sensor so senses rider power just like most mid-drive motors.
...
but sadly they are the most complicated motors too which means more reliability and service issues than hub motors generally.


It does seem that hub drives have better reliability overall than crank drives as you say. The Suntour system however is one of the least reliable systems out there judging by the number of complaints on the Pedalecs forum. Woosh (https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?tskit) is probably a better example of torque drive hub kits.

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willcee
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby willcee » 1 Jul 2020, 6:04pm

I would question you on where you think or even know where the torque you claim disappears.. where it ends up ...cause it does not disappear ...nor is it lost in the chain... I know from thousands of fast miles that my unmodded 1 hp Mid Motor with a claimed 80/100 nm takes me 200 and a 52lb bike 252 approx lbs to 35 odd mph where attainable on the flat like the proverbial wind at a high cadence and in no way would a lesser torque figure manage that pulling a 46x11.. not forgetting that the torque is available from 10rpm to 120rpm ..will