Effort or Speed?

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jun 2020, 5:52pm

If ever there's a terrain where an e-bike really shines,it's Cornwall hills.
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Greenbuilder
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Greenbuilder » 27 Jun 2020, 6:47pm

In my experience, people are buying ebikes to help them up the hills, not go faster.
I live in Calstock and probably ride up the hill in Mick F's post, as do the dozen or so people I have built ebikes for in the village.
I enclose a photo of the latest build; alloy hardtail with Bafang mid-drive and 12ah battery, weight 19.5 kg.
IMG_20190411_114944.jpg
.
The owner uses it to commute to work and shops instead of using the car, as is the case with most of my customers. A couple of them also pull a trailer.
I use my Salsa Vaya (non-electric) for enjoyment.
As reohn2 says, ebikes really shine round here and make cycling in Cornwall bearable for older and less fit riders.

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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 6:59pm

Greenbuilder, we probably know each other. :D
Lived in the valley for 35years, first dozen was up in Heath Terrace opposite Pearce's and now along Calstock Road in Gunny.
Mrs Mick F was the Lollipop Lady in Gunnislake for many years, and then worked at Gunnislake school for even longer.
We were the Poppy Appeal people for yonks, and would serve the whole parish including Calstock and beyond.
Mrs Mick F was a barmaid at the Boot Inn and then front of house at the Bakehouse Bistro (near where the old post office was).
Before the lockdown, we often were in the Tamar Inn.

reohn2 wrote:If ever there's a terrain where an e-bike really shines, it's Cornwall hills.
........but only if you want to go up them with ease.

The whole point of hills IMHO is to get up them under your own steam, even Sand Lane out of Calstock, let alone Church Hill out of there too.

What about a helicopter ride with your bike onboard to the top Winnats pass for instance, or Rosedale Chimney?
The achievement is in getting up them by your own effort.

If you can't get up them with your own leg power, what's the point?

Am I missing something here?
Mick F. Cornwall

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Cyril Haearn » 27 Jun 2020, 7:01pm

Mick F is obviously strong and fit and does not need an ebike even with lots of hills

I think he should test ride an ebike and report back, just hope he does not take it up seriously :wink:

Are people who do not need ebikes lucky?
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reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jun 2020, 7:14pm

Mick F wrote:
reohn2 wrote:If ever there's a terrain where an e-bike really shines, it's Cornwall hills.
........but only if you want to go up them with ease.

The whole point of hills IMHO is to get up them under your own steam.....

Only in your opinion,which is an opinion only relevant to you.
Others have other opinions and,it has to be said,with other ideas about how to enjoy their cycling.

TBH,I found your OP slightly puzzling,as it questions the validity of e-cyling on the electric cycling part of the forum.
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Greenbuilder
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Greenbuilder » 27 Jun 2020, 7:22pm

I've only lived here 20 years, but I'm sure we've waved to each other Mick, I'm usually on a light blue Salsa Vaya or occasionally on my wife's white ebike,
The point I was making is that ebikes get people out of cars and reluctant, unfit riders back on two wheels, and environmentally they seem to be part of the solution, more than electric cars, I suspect.

reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jun 2020, 7:31pm

Greenbuilder wrote:
.......The point I was making is that ebikes get people out of cars and reluctant, unfit riders back on two wheels, and environmentally they seem to be part of the solution, more than electric cars, I suspect.

Quite.
If some members of the forum coud only see beyond their prejudice of what cycling in their opinionn should be,and see what e-cycling can offer to reluctant cyclists for whatever reason.
Last edited by reohn2 on 27 Jun 2020, 7:34pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 7:34pm

Greenbuilder wrote:I've only lived here 20 years, but I'm sure we've waved to each other Mick, I'm usually on a light blue Salsa Vaya
Yes, I'm sure we have. :D
I'll look out for you.

May be out on a Mouton test ride tomorrow morning, though not via Calstock. Probably out to Callington along the main road then back via Kelly Bray and Delaware Road. 14miles is enough for a test.

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Sorry R2.

My OP was perhaps a bit badly worded.
I was trying to ask ........... and hopefully I get the question across better .............

eBikes are speed limited in the way they work.
15mph ish max, and anything more is down to legs only.

However, going along on the road on a normal bicycle, the faster you go, the more effort you put in.
It's a progressive thing from slow to fast, and if you're fitter and stronger, you can go faster.
Come to even a slight hill, and you put more effort in and it's progressive too.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

An eBike will assist you up hills, even steep ones, providing you are doing less than 15mph ish.
Come to a steep hill ............ like Sand Hill out of Gunnislake, or even Church Hill out of Calstock, and with an eBike, you can basically sail up them. I've seen them.

Why are eBikes speed limited in assistance and not effort limited in assistance?
If they were effort limited, I could see their appeal.
As they are, they take away the joy of climbing hills for me at least.

Have I got this question clearly?
If not, I apologise.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jun 2020, 7:46pm

Mick F wrote:
Sorry R2.

My OP was perhaps a bit badly worded.
I was trying to ask ........... and hopefully I get the question across better .............

eBikes are speed limited in the way they work.
15mph ish max, and anything more is down to legs only.

However, going along on the road on a normal bicycle, the faster you go, the more effort you put in.
It's a progressive thing from slow to fast, and if you're fitter and stronger, you can go faster.
Come to even a slight hill, and you put more effort in and it's progressive too.

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

An eBike will assist you up hills, even steep ones, providing you are doing less than 15mph ish.
Come to a steep hill ............ like Sand Hill out of Gunnislake, or even Church Hill out of Calstock, and with an eBike, you can basically sail up them. I've seen them.

Why are eBikes speed limited in assistance and not effort limited in assistance?
If they were effort limited, I could see their appeal.
As they are, they take away the joy of climbing hills for me at least.

Have I got this question clearly?
If not, I apologise.

It's simple.
Not everyone wants the exertion you enjoy,electric assist helps dissipate what those people don't want.
Furthermore many of those people using e-bikes wouldn't and indeed couldn't contemplate cycling in even less challenging terrain than where you live.
Such people have a completely different agenda and approach to cycling than you have and for a multitude of reasons.
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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 7:53pm

Sorry again R2.
Still not got my point across, though you have answered very well, and I understand that point of view.

Simple basic question.
Why are eBikes SPEED limited?
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby reohn2 » 27 Jun 2020, 8:02pm

Mick F wrote:Sorry again R2.
Still not got my point across, though you have answered very well, and I understand that point of view.

Simple basic question.
Why are eBikes SPEED limited?

It's been derived as what is seen as a sensible top speed limit for an unlicenced vehicle,which IMO is reasonable.

In some continental countries there's a higher speed classification of (I think) 35kph e-bike which needs insurance,reg plate and helmet compulsion,but is still a pedelec needing effort from the rider.
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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 8:10pm

reohn2 wrote:
Mick F wrote:Sorry again R2.
Still not got my point across, though you have answered very well, and I understand that point of view.

Simple basic question.
Why are eBikes SPEED limited?

It's been derived as what is seen as a sensible top speed limit for an unlicenced vehicle,which IMO is reasonable.

Sorry again for re-asking.

Speed limiting I can see, but why SPEED?
Why not EFFORT limiting?

If you come to a hill, why shouldn't the system know it's a hill due to the speed and power required, and give you less electricity so you personally and physically feel the hill but with still some but less assistance?
Mick F. Cornwall

stodd
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby stodd » 27 Jun 2020, 8:14pm

Mick F wrote:
Greenbuilder wrote:Why are eBikes speed limited in assistance and not effort limited in assistance?
They are legally both speed limited (15.5 mph assisted) and effort (250w nominal power), though the 'nominal' in power can actually mean up to 750w peak or even more.

As pointed out the limits are a concession for e-bikes needing no licence, insurance, tax etc. They can be exceeded with appropriate licence etc etc.

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Mick F
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Mick F » 27 Jun 2020, 8:21pm

Ok, I'm losing the argument here! :D

Try this as a question:

If you need an eBike for whatever reason ...................... no complaints from me why you need or want one.

Why should you be able to ride it easier and faster than a fit cyclist on a similar - but non-electric - bike?
Mick F. Cornwall

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Syd
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Re: Effort or Speed?

Postby Syd » 27 Jun 2020, 8:42pm

I’m just returning to cycling after a serious injury. On one longer hill on my commute I’m sustaining 350w up the hill at 11 to 12 mph.

Assuming a 250w motor I assume I ‘d be able to hit 15.5mph whilst inputting under 200w via my legs?

Not that I intend to as I hope to build my fitness back up!