e-scooters

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
cyclingfrogs
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Joined: 16 Nov 2019, 8:08pm

e-scooters

Postby cyclingfrogs » 25 Jul 2020, 8:35pm

Roger Geffen's article on e-scooters raises some questions about their safety. The reason I'm guessing that e-scooters will be allowed a higher wattage motor than an e-bike is that a bike rider can add effort on a hill whereas a scooter rider can't do so easily. And a 500 watt motor will not be 'far more likely to cause danger to pedestrians' than a lower powered one because the speed and acceleration will still be limited by the control system. The higher power will simply allow the scooter to climb steeper hills. Road legal electric bikes with 250 watt motors are limited in their hill climbing ability - a reasonably strong rider will need to add effort to climb steep hills.
Also remember that e-bikes have no legal speed limits on the public road; once that 15.5mph speed is reached and the motor cuts out, the rider can go at any speed! Only the law concerning reckless and dangerous riding applies.
If car use is to be significantly reduced in urban areas, e-scooters

cyclingfrogs
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Re: e-scooters

Postby cyclingfrogs » 25 Jul 2020, 8:39pm

(continued) If conventional motorised traffic is to be reduced in urban areas, e-scooters should be encouraged so we need to find the right ways to allow them on the roads. They need to be light enough to put them in and out of a car so they can be taken from outside towns and used to get around.

cyclingfrogs
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e-bikes safety

Postby cyclingfrogs » 25 Jul 2020, 8:44pm

I wonder how many cyclists get knocked off their bikes by pedestrians stepping into the road without looking? After all, research has shown that in 80-90% of collisions between pedestrians and vehicles, the pedestrians are to blame. I think cyclists and scooter riders, whether electric or not, are more at risk from pedestrians than the other way round.

Antbrewer
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Re: e-scooters

Postby Antbrewer » 26 Jul 2020, 9:55am

The other day I saw a small clip on the TV regarding the introduction of E scooters and their having to be licensed from a main dealer/supplier to enable the user to ride them legally on the road here in the UK.
The comment that really pricked my ears up was that such scooters are dangerous as when the batteries need replacing cheaper ones will be used and these can catch fire as they do with E bikes.......... //
I wasn't aware of any ebikes catching fire with cheaper batteries. I certainly haven't heard of this though it might be a problem somewhere????????

I sense a debate might now start with E scooters and E bikes all coming under the same umbrella of usage by idiots who tear around in and out of pedestrians and traffic. We have all lived with bicycles in our world for decades generally very peacefully but what I have already seen with scooters here and read about in other European cities this is a different kettle of fish completely.

toontra
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Location: London

Re: e-scooters

Postby toontra » 26 Jul 2020, 10:00am

In the last few days there has been an explosion of electric scooters in central/north London, often on the pavement and some doing well over 15mph. There will be serious accidents - sooner rather than later.

Cyril Haearn
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Re: e-bikes safety

Postby Cyril Haearn » 26 Jul 2020, 10:57am

cyclingfrogs wrote:I wonder how many cyclists get knocked off their bikes by pedestrians stepping into the road without looking? After all, research has shown that in 80-90% of collisions between pedestrians and vehicles, the pedestrians are to blame
..

Cannae believe that
Mortons create danger by going too fast where people [pedestrians] are present, for example by not stopping at STOP signs, creeping forward before the people are clear etc eye
Entertainer, intellectual, idealist, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we dislike mortons

stodd
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Re: e-scooters

Postby stodd » 26 Jul 2020, 1:18pm

The main reason for allowing higher power on an e-scooter than an e-bike is pressure from US interests; with the government so keen to suck up to any US pressure.

The higher power is already permitted there (as are higher powered e-bikes), the scooter designs and scooter are already available; with many already in the UK but technically illegal to use. Most of the current potential hire companies are US based (my understanding, may be wrong there).

An e-scooter is more navigable than a bike (e or not) at low speeds, but increasingly less so at higher speeds. They should definitely have a significantly lower speed limit that the 15.5mph assisted speed e-bikes currently have (I think that 15.5 is an appropriate limit). Of course it will be almost impossible to ride a scooter on the level above the assisted speed.

kwackers
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Re: e-scooters

Postby kwackers » 26 Jul 2020, 8:08pm

stodd wrote:The main reason for allowing higher power on an e-scooter than an e-bike is pressure from US interests; with the government so keen to suck up to any US pressure.

If you'd ridden one for any length of time and ridden a comparable e-bike you'd quickly realise that the main reason to allow a higher power is that e-scooters are considerably poorer performers than a similarly powered e-bike.

A 350w scooter struggles on all but the gentlest of slopes and that's with my 13st bulk. Someone a bit chubbier might find it won't go up hills at all.
Ditto acceleration, my e-bike is way quicker off the mark. The scooter otoh is a lot tamer.

If you weigh 7 stone they're probably quite good fun, otherwise IMO they're merely a good last mile bit of transport.

stodd
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Re: e-scooters

Postby stodd » 27 Jul 2020, 9:03am

kwackers wrote:
stodd wrote:The main reason for allowing higher power on an e-scooter than an e-bike is pressure from US interests; with the government so keen to suck up to any US pressure.

If you'd ridden one for any length of time and ridden a comparable e-bike you'd quickly realise that the main reason to allow a higher power is that e-scooters are considerably poorer performers than a similarly powered e-bike.

A 350w scooter struggles on all but the gentlest of slopes and that's with my 13st bulk. Someone a bit chubbier might find it won't go up hills at all.
Ditto acceleration, my e-bike is way quicker off the mark. The scooter otoh is a lot tamer.

If you weigh 7 stone they're probably quite good fun, otherwise IMO they're merely a good last mile bit of transport.

Interesting, I must admit I've never ridden an e-scooter.

Some of the difference must be that on an e-bike you are usually putting in some effort on hills and acceleration, but I would have guessed that to be not much more than 100w for the average not very energetic rider; even a low end 250w motor (such as our XF07) will probably be outputting 400w in those conditions.

Various thoughts on why the scooter might be so bad at hill climbing:
* inappropriately geared, to allow a faster top speed
* significantly less efficient (I would expect some loss due to wheels etc, but not a very large efficiency difference)
* different measurements of motor power (quite common for the same ebike motor to be 250w rated in UK and 350w in US; might be bigger differences with scooter motors where there is no UK regulation to encourage low specified ratings)

Any comments from engineers out there?

From my bias an e-scooter would only be good for the last mile of transport even with appropriate power; my bias might change if I actually tried riding one.

p.s. I've also copied this to the pedalecs forum at https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/thread ... ngs.38575/ because I am interested on reactions from there as well.

kwackers
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Re: e-scooters

Postby kwackers » 27 Jul 2020, 10:40am

I don't know how much difference it would make but most 'low' powered hub motors are geared. Direct drive hubs are usually high powered.
Scooters have direct drive hubs - however they also have much smaller wheels (typically 8-10 inches).

I'll be honest, I have one in the hall that I borrowed of a work colleague and in the past few weeks I've been out and about on it, mainly touring the local linear park and I find it quite pleasant.
It tootles along at a moderate speed, not too fast, you're stood up with a good view of whats going on and doing 6-8 miles ish is actually quite pleasant on it.
Prior to lockdown I tried it a few times on the train and found it to be excellent, you can always find somewhere to put it even putting it in a rack or standing it on its end next to you if everyone is standing whilst traditional cyclists are getting turned away.

Would I buy one? Not sure I'd want to punt the £400 it cost on one but it's hard to find fault with what it does.
Last edited by kwackers on 27 Jul 2020, 10:45am, edited 1 time in total.

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philg
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Re: e-scooters

Postby philg » 27 Jul 2020, 10:41am

If you think scooters are dangerous........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA
(want one)

kwackers
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Re: e-scooters

Postby kwackers » 27 Jul 2020, 10:46am

philg wrote:If you think scooters are dangerous........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2OwOEHQ4vA
(want one)

Now they look seriously good fun - but the price!

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philg
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Re: e-scooters

Postby philg » 27 Jul 2020, 10:59am

kwackers wrote:Now they look seriously good fun - but the price!

They do come in less Darwinian versions for reasonable dosh
https://www.speedyfeet.co.uk/collection ... eel-segway

Jdsk
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Re: e-scooters

Postby Jdsk » 27 Jul 2020, 11:02am

stodd wrote:Various thoughts on why the scooter might be so bad at hill climbing:
* inappropriately geared, to allow a faster top speed
* significantly less efficient (I would expect some loss due to wheels etc, but not a very large efficiency difference)
* different measurements of motor power (quite common for the same ebike motor to be 250w rated in UK and 350w in US; might be bigger differences with scooter motors where there is no UK regulation to encourage low specified ratings)

Any comments from engineers out there?

I'd like to see a like for like comparison before looking for detailed explanations.

Jonathan

stodd
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Re: e-scooters

Postby stodd » 27 Jul 2020, 11:47am

Jdsk wrote:I'd like to see a like for like comparison before looking for detailed explanations.
Jonathan
Good point. I guess many of us are like me and have never driven an e-scooter at all. I'd like to try one sometime. Might be difficult to decide exactly what we mean by 'like for like', especially as scooters are usually direct drive.

I think we would agree that whatever else, they should be banned on pavements (or maybe limited to 2.5mph or 5m distancing from nearest pedestrian) with immediate confiscation where that is broken.