Electric power points for e-vehicles

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 15 Aug 2020, 1:58pm

kwackers wrote:
Jdsk wrote:Standardisation of the connector and of the charging protocol need to be considered separately, although of course only some combinations are possible.

Only if you've got your techy hat on.

As a user all you're concerned about is whether you can plug your car in.

Yes, I was discussing it from the PoV of standardisation as in the original post, not an individual EV user. But standardisation is often as much a matter of history, geography, politics and competitive advantage as it is of technology.

Jonathan

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 15 Aug 2020, 2:54pm

thirdcrank wrote:In the interests of broadening my education, I've just had a skeg at the EDF www. I hope people accept I don't believe much these days in adverts, especially from those with a vested interest.

https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/charging-points

Some interesting ... er ... points about electric charging systems

CHAdeMO

Is the older type of charging cable connector for rapid charging
Is compatible with Japanese vehicle manufacturers
Is the most common rapid connector type due to the popularity of the Nissan Leaf

Combined Charging System (CCS)

Is the most versatile rapid charging connector
Likely to become the most popular DC connector standardisation
Enables a higher power rating to support larger ultra rapids chargers

(My emphases)

CCS is what a Type 2 connector with the extra prongs for DC charging is called.
(I tried to simply it by referring to them all as Type 2, in reality as a driver they're all the same except that CCS always provide you with the cable as I mentioned).
It's also referred to as "mennekes" although I've never heard anyone use that term.

CHAdeMO *was* the most common connector.
The Leaf has been around since 2010 and was easily the most common electric vehicle so most chargers were put in place to use it.
Then the Zoe came along with its Type 2 connector and then Tesla and at some point the format war swung in favour of Type 2/CCS.

So historically there are still a lot of CHAdeMO chargers - probably even some that only provide CHAdeMO but that situation is changing fast.
Warrington recently installed 8 chargers at the local station and another 50 in the multistorey - none of them support CHAdeMO.
All new chargers support Type 2 and there were probably more installed in the last 12 months than in the previous 10 years.

richtea99
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby richtea99 » 15 Aug 2020, 7:02pm

mercalia wrote:...will we get the same for ebikes?


Unlikely I think, for a few reasons:

- ebikes need very little energy, so you can't easily charge (ha!) for such a service. The profit just isn't there, unlike car charging.

- a single charge at home covers most rider's needs. Many ebikes manage 50-70 miles on a full charge & with moderate use. Most rides will be sub-50 miles.

- if you do go 50+ miles you're likely to have a stop or two. You plan ahead & carry a charger and ask to plug into the cafe for 30-60 mins. An ebike isn't going to suck the cafe electric supply dry, and you're giving them business. 60 mins will give a signficant boost to your range, but granted, not a full top up.

mercalia
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby mercalia » 16 Aug 2020, 9:57am

what would have been funny in the power points case at the start would have been for Lambeth to put double yellow lines there :lol: :lol:

kwackers
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Location: Warrington

Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 16 Aug 2020, 10:01am

richtea99 wrote:
mercalia wrote:...will we get the same for ebikes?


Unlikely I think, for a few reasons:

- ebikes need very little energy, so you can't easily charge (ha!) for such a service. The profit just isn't there, unlike car charging.

- a single charge at home covers most rider's needs. Many ebikes manage 50-70 miles on a full charge & with moderate use. Most rides will be sub-50 miles.

- if you do go 50+ miles you're likely to have a stop or two. You plan ahead & carry a charger and ask to plug into the cafe for 30-60 mins. An ebike isn't going to suck the cafe electric supply dry, and you're giving them business. 60 mins will give a signficant boost to your range, but granted, not a full top up.

If you were really bothered the handshaking to make a type 2 connector 'live' is fairly simple so you could get a modified connector to charge your bike. It's only standard mains voltage at the pins when it's live. (CCS excepted, those DC pins carry a hell of a kick).

The plug is a bit big compared to your standard 3 pin jobbie, but I think it'd be quite amusing to see a bicycle hogging a charge point and charging from it.
I suspect most EV owners wouldn't be amused. Being ICed is already a source of increasing annoyance - there was a protest about it somewhere a few months ago where a load of EV's parked up on a petrol station forecourt blocking all the pumps. Still at least you'd be charging...

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 16 Aug 2020, 10:07am

richtea99 wrote:
mercalia wrote:...will we get the same for ebikes?

Unlikely I think, for a few reasons:

- ebikes need very little energy, so you can't easily charge (ha!) for such a service. The profit just isn't there, unlike car charging.

- a single charge at home covers most rider's needs. Many ebikes manage 50-70 miles on a full charge & with moderate use. Most rides will be sub-50 miles.

- if you do go 50+ miles you're likely to have a stop or two. You plan ahead & carry a charger and ask to plug into the cafe for 30-60 mins. An ebike isn't going to suck the cafe electric supply dry, and you're giving them business. 60 mins will give a signficant boost to your range, but granted, not a full top up.

I agree.

But from the standardisation PoV there's something implicit in all of those... the existing technology (in this case the 13A socket) was just about good enough for purpose. There wasn't an equivalent for EVs.

Jonathan

thirdcrank
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Aug 2020, 10:21am

Re the adoption of electric vehicles

The UK market for new vehicles still seems to be dominated by the so-called company car/ van market. Many of these vehicles cover big mileages. Until charging doesn't interfere with that, imo this will slow adoption. I have a couple of neighbours with plug-in hybrids + home charging points. It seems there was a tax advantage in choosing a PHEV but they don't really bother much with the electric running. I suppose some firms may go electric as part of a green image.

The new vehicle market among private buyers seems to be dominated by people who buy for the longer term, hence Korean manufacturers offering seven-year warranties. There is, of course, the increasing tendency for private buyers to use a form of never-never to change their cars more frequently but that looks like turning into the next big mis-selling scandal.

Obviously, the second-hand market depends on what was new a while ago.

reohn2
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2020, 10:45am

I occured to me that most of the weight of those Transit/Sprinter type parcel vans is the van's ICE engine and fuel load for all day running,as most of the payload is pretty lightweight parcels,so swapping ICE for elec motors and batteries might return far better economy especially if there more quick fire charging stations.
I suspect it's in the pipeline.

EDIT,imagine a brown field site of little use for much,install a load of solar panels one size fits all light commercial batteries that can be swapped in a 10minutes,they would extend range of e-Transits and Sprinters etc.
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Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 16 Aug 2020, 10:51am

At least two manufacturers (including one in the UK) are producing battery-only vehicles for that specific purpose.

I'm not expecting much battery swapping outside particular minority niches.

Jonathan

reohn2
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2020, 10:53am

Jdsk wrote:At least two manufacturers (including one in the UK) are producing battery-only vehicles for that specific niche.

Jonathan

I have seen a UPS walkthrough e-van on YouTube but haven't read the test,I was unaware of any others.
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Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 16 Aug 2020, 10:58am

Rivian for Amazon,100,000 ordered.
https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/1298/amazon-rivian-vans-online-retailers-100000-strong-order-track

Arrival for UPS, 10,000 ordered in the UK, produced in the UK.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... rt-arrival


I was very disappointed that the new London Taxi didn't have a battery-only option from launch.

Jonathan

reohn2
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2020, 11:06am

Thanks for that.
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kwackers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 16 Aug 2020, 12:20pm

The only real thing holding EV vehicles back is a lack of low end models.
That said there are a couple of offerings on the market that don't cost a lot more than the equivalent IC.

FWIW during the lockdown the car market positively crashed with IC sales down 80-90%.
EV sales OTOH where up something like 25%.

Personally I'm expecting us to be swamped with Chinese EV's in a few years. They make some excellent and cheap EV's now.
At some point their domestic market will saturate and the manufacturers will start to look for markets elsewhere.


I kept records for the first 2000 miles, I worked out the total amount I'd spent on electricity over that period was less than £10.
That's possible because I can pick and choose when to charge and in some cases actually get paid to use the electricity, but even if I'd paid at my average of 7p then for my usual "consumption" of 4.5 miles per Kw it would still have cost less than £32.

Once you knock the fuel savings off the cost of the car you don't need to drive them that long before you're in profit and given most private purchases are monthly "rentals" then the difference between paying £250 a month and £350 a month is moot if the £350 a month car saves you £150 on fuel (and possible zone charges for cities).
(Plus EV's don't depreciate as quickly as IC's so there's savings on depreciation too)

kwackers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 16 Aug 2020, 12:22pm

thirdcrank wrote:Re the adoption of electric vehicles

The UK market for new vehicles still seems to be dominated by the so-called company car/ van market. Many of these vehicles cover big mileages. Until charging doesn't interfere with that, imo this will slow adoption. I have a couple of neighbours with plug-in hybrids + home charging points. It seems there was a tax advantage in choosing a PHEV but they don't really bother much with the electric running. I suppose some firms may go electric as part of a green image.

The new vehicle market among private buyers seems to be dominated by people who buy for the longer term, hence Korean manufacturers offering seven-year warranties. There is, of course, the increasing tendency for private buyers to use a form of never-never to change their cars more frequently but that looks like turning into the next big mis-selling scandal.

Obviously, the second-hand market depends on what was new a while ago.

PHEV's are almost pointless, the worst of both worlds with the complexity of both and some.
Crap mileage for most too so hardly worth the effort of plugging in.
I predict they'll disappear in the next few years long before IC cars go merely because they'll look expensive next to an equivalent EV which will drive a lot better to boot.

As you say most are bought because they offer a tax advantage and quite likely their owners get a mileage allowance so the incentive to even try isn't that high.

thirdcrank
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Aug 2020, 12:32pm

kwackers wrote:The only real thing holding EV vehicles back is a lack of low end models. ...


But this is the way modern marketing works: introduce 14 speed cassettes as Super Record/ Dura Ace only, then trickle them down. Electric propulsion has been expensive and will inevitably get cheaper cp solar panels but the UK car market doesn't thrive on cheap new cars. There are going to be marketing changes particularly buying online rather than in a showroom and lockdown has speeded that up - just as it has given working from home a boost (with a reduced need for work-related travel.) OTOH, public transport is currently considered a danger zone so that could push more travellers into private cars.