Electric power points for e-vehicles

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 22 Aug 2020, 3:26pm

Mick F wrote:If there's dampness internally with a modern car, it must have been brought in.

Err, well probably.

Opening the door brings it in - do you have a way of opening the door without it getting in?
My limited knowledge of physics suggests opening a door creates a pressure drop in the car which sucks air in - which I'm guessing is from outside.

Turning the blower on to get warm - odds are that's from outside too.
You can of course turn the air recycling on but if you've got 4 wet bodies rammed into your car that might be a mistake.

And of course the air could have been damp when you were using the car the day before but the temperature wasn't conducive to condensation.
The next morning with a drop in temperature the same air could quite easily condense.

And of course there's timing, it's predominantly a function of early mornings. If you no longer go out every morning first thing in your car then the odds of it happening are significantly reduced.

Besides, a bit further up thread you were saying you always have the "CC" on so I'm not sure why it suddenly has nothing to do with aircon other than it suits your current argument?

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 3:42pm

IME, one of the most common sources of the moisture which causes car windows to steam up is the breath of the occupants.

Kwackers has explained the physics. If air is saturated with water, any reduction in temperature reduces the air's saturation point. Outdoors, this causes precipitation which may take the form of clouds, rain, hail or snow. Indoors, it's most quickly seen as steamed up windows - less common with double glazing - and condensation on the cold bathroom tap. Talking of double glazing, thermal breaks in window frames etc are installed to prevent this condensation.

Electrically heated rear windows are a fairly recent development - early 1970s on basic models IIRC. Before that it used to be quite common to see transparent plastic panels which were stuck on the inside of rear windows to form a sort of double glazing to reduce condensation. I think that the suggestion that heated windows were introduced only to deal with external ice is simply wrong.

AIUI. aircon deals with condensation by drying the air entering the passenger compartment ie it works by ensuring the air is not saturated. That's different to traditional heater + blower systems and heated windows which work by warming the windows so condensation does not occur.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 22 Aug 2020, 3:46pm

thirdcrank wrote:Electrically heated rear windows are a fairly recent development - early 1970s on basic models IIRC. Before that it used to be quite common to see transparent plastic panels which were stuck on the inside of rear windows to form a sort of double glazing to reduce condensation. I think that the suggestion that heated windows were introduced only to deal with external ice is simply wrong.

Available in the 1960s, common in the 1970s. And there was an intermediate stage of stick-on heated panels.

Jonathan

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 4:34pm

I'm talking about basic models. I passed my test in 1965 in a BSM Mini and no such fripperies. My dear old dad also had a series of Minis which I drove. I increased my driving experience the following year driving ancient Dormobile ice cream vans in Bradford. In February 1968 I passed my police test at a time when Panda cars were being introduced and in Leeds we had Vauxhall Vivas. Definitely no heated windows. There used to be a system whereby the Police Federation was able to make (humble) representations to the chief constable and I remember one such was the fitting of the plastic "double glazing" panels I've mentioned for rear windows. The refusal of this was along the lines that these were the most modern vehicles and could be demisted by correct use of the heater and by opening windows if necessary. Apart from anything else, the heater control which was essentially a tap controlling the circulation of radiator coolant into the heater was unreliable and prone to flooding the passenger footwell.

The second generation of panda cars (1970ish?) did have heated rear windows but rubbish generators so flat batteries became the norm. It was only the third generation of Vivas which had alternators which overcame that.

The availability of stick-on heater filaments for cars without the factory-fitted system suggests to me that plenty of drivers valued a means of demisting the rear window. These weren't the same as the "double glazing."

In those far-off days, the car heater was listed as an extra, although I don't think any cars were available in the UK without them.

Incidentally, as a police driver I've probably spent more time stationary in a car than driving one about.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 22 Aug 2020, 5:02pm

thirdcrank wrote:The second generation of panda cars (1970ish?) did have heated rear windows but rubbish generators so flat batteries became the norm. It was only the third generation of Vivas which had alternators which overcame that.

My father ran a Triplex test car (Rover 3500) that had front, rear and all side windows heated. With an alternator from a bus.

Jonathan

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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 5:27pm

As I said, I was talking about basic models.

My father ran a Triplex test car (Rover 3500) that had front, rear and all side windows heated. With an alternator from a bus.


Thinks: why would somebody go to such lengths to cure a non-existent problem?

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 22 Aug 2020, 5:29pm

: - )

Jonathan

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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby mjr » 22 Aug 2020, 5:47pm

Mick F wrote:Every time we come out of the house to drive - even if it's chucking it down and cold too, it's seconds before we're into the car and the doors closed.

That sounds like my idea of hell, being captive in houses and cars all day.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Mick F
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 22 Aug 2020, 7:17pm

Yes, I agree, but you've quoted the the salient fact there.
Very little chance indeed of wet and damp getting into a dry car.
Mick F. Cornwall

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mjr
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby mjr » 22 Aug 2020, 7:19pm

Mick F wrote:Yes, I agree, but you've quoted the the salient fact there.
Very little chance indeed of wet and damp getting into a dry car.

Meanwhile, those of us more active outdoors, we find our cars mist up!

Bikes are best! No energy needs to be wasted on demisting!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 22 Aug 2020, 8:22pm

mjr wrote:Meanwhile, those of us more active outdoors, we find our cars mist up!

Bikes are best! No energy needs to be wasted on demisting!

I occasionally meet folk for a 12-15 mile run (jog). Where we run from is about 6 miles away and if I'm feeling fit I'll ride it otherwise I'll go there in the car.

If I get rained on and get in the car with my thin (and thus thermally responsive) wet running gear whilst still hot from my run I sometimes have to sit in the car for 5 mins or so with the AC running to clear the instant whiteout I got when I get in.

Hot wet people positively radiate steam - I often even see it if I stop for a moment before crossing a road, must look like I'm on fire the amount of steam that's pouring off!

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 8:29pm

I don't know if this is guff, but I've always believed that in a less sophisticated era, doctors checked if a body was breathing by putting a mirror close to its face and noting if it steamed up.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 22 Aug 2020, 9:00pm

Not guff. It works. And in some settings there hasn't been any advance in methods.... waiting and having another look later helps a lot.

Jonathan

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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Aug 2020, 9:07pm

If an apparently inert person can steam up a mirror, somebody breathing normally must surely be able to steam up cold car windows.

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Mick F
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 23 Aug 2020, 4:41pm

thirdcrank wrote:If an apparently inert person can steam up a mirror, somebody breathing normally must surely be able to steam up cold car windows.
.......... by leaning forwards to breath on them?

Most of our cars in recent years, it's a long stretch to touch the front window, let alone breath on it.
Mick F. Cornwall