Electric power points for e-vehicles

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
thirdcrank
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Aug 2020, 5:18pm

Mick F wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:If an apparently inert person can steam up a mirror, somebody breathing normally must surely be able to steam up cold car windows.
.......... by leaning forwards to breath on them?

Most of our cars in recent years, it's a long stretch to touch the front window, let alone breath on it.


The rest of the world is working on the principle that condensation on the inside of vehicle windows is a problem.

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 29 Aug 2020, 8:02pm

Jdsk wrote:Rivian for Amazon,100,000 ordered.
https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/1298/amazon-rivian-vans-online-retailers-100000-strong-order-track

Arrival for UPS, 10,000 ordered in the UK, produced in the UK.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/indu ... rt-arrival

Amazon has ordered 600 Mercedes-Benz eVitos and 1,000 eSprinters.
https://electrek.co/2020/08/28/amazon-orders-electric-vans-from-mercedes-benz/

Jonathan


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[XAP]Bob
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby [XAP]Bob » 23 Nov 2020, 1:13pm

thirdcrank wrote:Unless I've missed something, it's only a matter of time before that rapid charge becomes the norm. ie it's the only one which seems to be anything like the familiar fuel pump.


Which petrol pump do you have at home?

At even a paltry 3m/kWh (3.5-4 is much more normal), an eight hour overnight charge at home (7kW) will give more than 150 miles of range for the next day - that's plenty for basically all "normal" usage.

There are two exceptions:
:arrow: Long journeys
When I visit my parents I need to charge en route.
This is where rapid chargers are needed - and they are now available at ridiculous power levels.
The current issue is that ecotricity was sponsored by Nissan, so have more chademo connectors than CCS, and no real incentive to update.

CCS is now available (ionity) delivering up to 350kW - that's charging at 1200 miles an hour...
If I had a charger that could ingest that much power I could charge the whole battery from flat in ~7 minutes (obviously the rate would be slowed for the last 20%, but I could hit 80% in 6 minutes. My charger (which is actually in the car, the "pumps" are actually just fancy switches, with some DC magic thrown in) can only ingest 50kW, but I envisage that changing over the coming years.


:arrow: People without reasonably dedicated parking (i.e. a space they can say they'll get at least once a week).
People without dedicated parking available either at home *or* at work will need to use public charging points - and that will be a mix of rapid and slow charging.
I've not used any low speed public chargers yet, a 'slow' charge over lunch (an hour) could add 20 miles to my range, not really worth the effort for me - I'll use the disabled space instead. For a PHEV they make sense, because you can basically fill the battery in that time, and that will make a significant difference, but I'm not really sold on most phevs - the Vauxhall Ampera was a decent stab at one, and the Bolt was an excellent example of how to really combine the different power trains.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

sjs
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby sjs » 23 Nov 2020, 1:28pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Unless I've missed something, it's only a matter of time before that rapid charge becomes the norm. ie it's the only one which seems to be anything like the familiar fuel pump.


Which petrol pump do you have at home?

At even a paltry 3m/kWh (3.5-4 is much more normal), an eight hour overnight charge at home (7kW) will give more than 150 miles of range for the next day - that's plenty for basically all "normal" usage.

There are two exceptions:
:arrow: Long journeys
When I visit my parents I need to charge en route.
This is where rapid chargers are needed - and they are now available at ridiculous power levels.
The current issue is that ecotricity was sponsored by Nissan, so have more chademo connectors than CCS, and no real incentive to update.

CCS is now available (ionity) delivering up to 350kW - that's charging at 1200 miles an hour...
If I had a charger that could ingest that much power I could charge the whole battery from flat in ~7 minutes (obviously the rate would be slowed for the last 20%, but I could hit 80% in 6 minutes. My charger (which is actually in the car, the "pumps" are actually just fancy switches, with some DC magic thrown in) can only ingest 50kW, but I envisage that changing over the coming years.


:arrow: People without reasonably dedicated parking (i.e. a space they can say they'll get at least once a week).
People without dedicated parking available either at home *or* at work will need to use public charging points - and that will be a mix of rapid and slow charging.
I've not used any low speed public chargers yet, a 'slow' charge over lunch (an hour) could add 20 miles to my range, not really worth the effort for me - I'll use the disabled space instead. For a PHEV they make sense, because you can basically fill the battery in that time, and that will make a significant difference, but I'm not really sold on most phevs - the Vauxhall Ampera was a decent stab at one, and the Bolt was an excellent example of how to really combine the different power trains.


For various reasons we're still charging from a 2.4kW 3-pin plug, ie at about 9 mph. Even that is ample for nearly all daily use. Long journeys can be a bit of a pain though, unless there's a supercharger en route. Typical filling station 50 kW chargers are not quick enough not to be a pain. And it goes without saying that there will have to be far more of them when the majority of vehicles are electric. Far more than there are petrol pumps now, given the much longer occupancy per visit.

kwackers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 23 Nov 2020, 3:07pm

sjs wrote:For various reasons we're still charging from a 2.4kW 3-pin plug, ie at about 9 mph. Even that is ample for nearly all daily use. Long journeys can be a bit of a pain though, unless there's a supercharger en route. Typical filling station 50 kW chargers are not quick enough not to be a pain. And it goes without saying that there will have to be far more of them when the majority of vehicles are electric. Far more than there are petrol pumps now, given the much longer occupancy per visit.

I spent 8 months on a 3 pin plug with no issues, worked fine.
I only fitted a proper charger in the end because I had to open the garage door to throw the granny charger under it plus I'd already bought the charger but simply never got around to fitting it.

I personally could manage where I live without a charger at all. I'd use the local station chargers (I notice some folk from the nearby flats also use them).
That combined with the supermarkets etc would be fine for me.

Never had to use a supercharger, the range of my car is enough for pretty much every journey I do.
(Had the lockdown not happened I'd have had to use one a few weeks ago).

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 23 Nov 2020, 4:29pm

Continuing the consistent pattern of EV users finding that charging works out OK in practice. Of course early adopters aren't selected at random.

Guardian story today on regional disparities, but it's a soluble problem:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... s-revealed

Screenshot 2020-11-23 at 16.28.09.png

Jonathan

stodd
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby stodd » 23 Nov 2020, 5:19pm

Jdsk wrote:Continuing the consistent pattern of EV users finding that charging works out OK in practice. Of course early adopters aren't selected at random.

Guardian story today on regional disparities, but it's a soluble problem:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... s-revealed

Screenshot 2020-11-23 at 16.28.09.png
Jonathan
If you are in the West of Scotland I think chargers per square mile is a more useful indication than chargers per 100,000 people.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby [XAP]Bob » 24 Nov 2020, 9:28am

sjs wrote:Typical filling station 50 kW chargers are not quick enough not to be a pain.


The MG has relatively poor range (163 wilt, 140 realistic) but with some comfort reserve at the bottom end and not waiting for the top 20% when fast charging we stop twice on the route to my parents.
i.e. we stop for ~30-40 minutes every couple of hours, that actually suits me just fine (but then my disability makes a difference there).

It's fast enough to be practical, but slow enough to require thought and planning.

Up towards the 350kW which is being deployed by ionity and we're looking at a five minute stop. In various ways that's preferable to a larger battery.

The real issue I have seen is that most service stations have an exclusive contract with ecotricity, and ecotricity aren't keeping up with the change in numbers of vehicles on the roads, or the different connectors those cars use.
So I tend to plan for three different stops - an early, a "wanted" and a late.
If the early one is occupied then it's no sweat, just move on... if the wanted one is occupied then see how long is left and decide whether to go on to the late one (where you just have to wait).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 24 Nov 2020, 9:32am

[XAP]Bob wrote:So I tend to plan for three different stops - an early, a "wanted" and a late.
If the early one is occupied then it's no sweat, just move on... if the wanted one is occupied then see how long is left and decide whether to go on to the late one (where you just have to wait).

That's interesting.

Thanks

Jonathan (Still at the stage of thinking through each petrol-fuelled trip for when we do get one)

kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 24 Nov 2020, 10:00am

Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:So I tend to plan for three different stops - an early, a "wanted" and a late.
If the early one is occupied then it's no sweat, just move on... if the wanted one is occupied then see how long is left and decide whether to go on to the late one (where you just have to wait).

That's interesting.

Thanks

Jonathan (Still at the stage of thinking through each petrol-fuelled trip for when we do get one)

Bob's strategy is afaik the standard for most EV owners.

I'm lucky in that the MG range is far more than I'd normally use, my furthest trip by car is probably 120 miles and it'll do that easily and then I can just plug it into a domestic socket at my destination overnight.

I probably do less motorway/A road driving than he does and when I do I usually sit about 65 which imo is a good compromise between speed and efficiency.
Over the summer I was getting around 190-200 miles range out of the same car and last Jan when temps were under zero around 140.

I personally think the mid 200's range is the sweet spot for EV's which suggests a battery size of 60kw or so.
100-150KW chargers would give 20 minute breaks ever few hours which is at the level of "sensible".

sjs
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby sjs » 24 Nov 2020, 12:05pm

kwackers wrote:
Jdsk wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:So I tend to plan for three different stops - an early, a "wanted" and a late.
If the early one is occupied then it's no sweat, just move on... if the wanted one is occupied then see how long is left and decide whether to go on to the late one (where you just have to wait).

That's interesting.

Thanks

Jonathan (Still at the stage of thinking through each petrol-fuelled trip for when we do get one)

Bob's strategy is afaik the standard for most EV owners.

I'm lucky in that the MG range is far more than I'd normally use, my furthest trip by car is probably 120 miles and it'll do that easily and then I can just plug it into a domestic socket at my destination overnight.

I probably do less motorway/A road driving than he does and when I do I usually sit about 65 which imo is a good compromise between speed and efficiency.
Over the summer I was getting around 190-200 miles range out of the same car and last Jan when temps were under zero around 140.

I personally think the mid 200's range is the sweet spot for EV's which suggests a battery size of 60kw or so.
100-150KW chargers would give 20 minute breaks ever few hours which is at the level of "sensible".


I agree. 100-150kW, preferably towards the 150 end of the range is fine, and in line with a standard coffee break. 50 kW gets tedious.
Regarding Bob's strategy, my experience of it in Devon this summer was: call at first filling station, charger out of order. Call at second, occupied. Third one in the car park of a pub, so great, somewhere to relax for an hour or so. No; covid pub rules meant they were full, even in the garden, so sit in the car for an hour.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby [XAP]Bob » 24 Nov 2020, 12:56pm

kwackers wrote:Bob's strategy is afaik the standard for most EV owners.

I'm lucky in that the MG range is far more than I'd normally use, my furthest trip by car is probably 120 miles and it'll do that easily and then I can just plug it into a domestic socket at my destination overnight.

I probably do less motorway/A road driving than he does and when I do I usually sit about 65 which imo is a good compromise between speed and efficiency.
Over the summer I was getting around 190-200 miles range out of the same car and last Jan when temps were under zero around 140.

We only have one journey where we regularly need to top up somewhere that isn't home - and that's to my parents (the in-laws are just about within a round trip, if we plug in there (3 pin, 13A) for a few hours then it's easy).


I personally think the mid 200's range is the sweet spot for EV's which suggests a battery size of 60kw or so.
100-150KW chargers would give 20 minute breaks ever few hours which is at the level of "sensible".

I'd agree with that - the 50kW breaks are just a little too long for most people, but since those journeys are the exception, not the rule, you approach the journey differently. It takes a couple of hours longer to get to my parents - not the end of the world since it's not every day, week or even month.
The last trip we did we went geocaching around the first stop, and grabbed some food for the second. It's quite nice to see different places (less so when it's raining).


Slightly annoyingly MG have just released the MG5 electric... that would have been a better choice for me I think - increased range (such that my one long trip would be a one stopper, not a two stopper) and the boot looks a better size/shape (so my wheelchair would likely go in without taking the wheels off). Oh well, I always said that this was a three year car (motability lease duration) and by then I expected there to be estate versions available... I overestimated how long those cars would take to arrive.
Oh well - maybe in three years we'll have some estate cars with more than 50kW charging, and preferably both rapid AC and rapid DC charging (it's annoying to be limited to 7kW on a charger that can deliver 22kW by using three phases) since that would double the number of charge points.

Things you learn when you get an electric car and have to start using the public network.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 24 Nov 2020, 1:05pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:Slightly annoyingly MG have just released the MG5 electric... that would have been a better choice for me I think - increased range (such that my one long trip would be a one stopper, not a two stopper) and the boot looks a better size/shape (so my wheelchair would likely go in without taking the wheels off). Oh well, I always said that this was a three year car (motability lease duration) and by then I expected there to be estate versions available... I overestimated how long those cars would take to arrive.

By the time your lease is up on the ZS we'll be into second or even third iterations of the two models (plus whatever else they bring out).
I expect to see a ZS with 60+kw battery & 100KW charging in a year or so.
I'd also expect the MG5 range and charge capabilities to go up on the next generation too (as well as adding the missing tech - no ACC is a bit of a downer IMO. Bit like heated seats, once you've had them you can't go back...)

My aim is to keep mine for the duration of the warranty which will see me to retirement age and see what's available then.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby [XAP]Bob » 25 Nov 2020, 11:57am

kwackers wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:Slightly annoyingly MG have just released the MG5 electric... that would have been a better choice for me I think - increased range (such that my one long trip would be a one stopper, not a two stopper) and the boot looks a better size/shape (so my wheelchair would likely go in without taking the wheels off). Oh well, I always said that this was a three year car (motability lease duration) and by then I expected there to be estate versions available... I overestimated how long those cars would take to arrive.

By the time your lease is up on the ZS we'll be into second or even third iterations of the two models (plus whatever else they bring out).
I expect to see a ZS with 60+kw battery & 100KW charging in a year or so.
I'd also expect the MG5 range and charge capabilities to go up on the next generation too (as well as adding the missing tech - no ACC is a bit of a downer IMO. Bit like heated seats, once you've had them you can't go back...)

My aim is to keep mine for the duration of the warranty which will see me to retirement age and see what's available then.



Hadn't spotted that it didn't have ACC - I assumed it was exactly the same software (the interior is basically identical). No Pilot features at all....

I'm less annoyed now, the ACC (and lane keeping) have massively increased my ability to drive long distances (from two hours max in a day in ideal conditions to over four).
I did drive for 2.5 hours in one day in the old car, but I was good for nothing all evening and the whole of the next day.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.