Electric power points for e-vehicles

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 16 Aug 2020, 6:35pm

richtea99 wrote:Electric vehicles tend to be heavier than their internal combustion equivalents, so I don't think there's a weight saving to be made. The electric motor is lighter than an ICE, but the batteries needed to reach the 200+ mile range a delivery van needs are blooming heavy (compared to a full petrol tank).

Arrival have mentioned a range for the UPS van of 190 km. I don't think that I've ever seen a figure for Rivian's offering to Amazon, but their other EVs are up in Tesla territory.

Jonathan

kwackers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 16 Aug 2020, 8:46pm

richtea99 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I occured to me that most of the weight of those Transit/Sprinter type parcel vans is the van's ICE engine and fuel load for all day running,as most of the payload is pretty lightweight parcels,so swapping ICE for elec motors and batteries might return far better economy especially if there more quick fire charging stations.


Electric vehicles tend to be heavier than their internal combustion equivalents, so I don't think there's a weight saving to be made. The electric motor is lighter than an ICE, but the batteries needed to reach the 200+ mile range a delivery van needs are blooming heavy (compared to a full petrol tank).

Depends on the delivery van.
The majority of local vans - post, parcels etc do nothing like 200 miles. They spend most of the day with their engine idling outside peoples houses - worst of all worlds.
Even tradesman vans tend to simply drive to a localish point and stay there all day.

I think small vans should almost be the first thing that's encouraged to go electric.

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 16 Aug 2020, 8:48pm

Definitely.

Image

Jonathan

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 16 Aug 2020, 8:49pm

Mick F wrote:Kwackers ........

Did you not have a (BMW) Cooper S?

I still do.

I got the new car in Jan and intended to get shut once my range anxiety went away and then lockdown happened.

It's now due an MOT next month, need to decide whether to bother or sell for scrap.
Trouble is it drives really well but it is 15 years old now and as I mentioned has a bit of rot on the rear quarters where the roof was welded back.

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mjr
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby mjr » 16 Aug 2020, 10:08pm

mercalia wrote:I was suprised on one of the side roads off Streatham High st there is a power charging point for presumably just cars. SO this is the future? will we get the same for ebikes?

Other countries have had them for years. I think this is from my 2017 trip to Middelburg:
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Ecotap ebike chargers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby reohn2 » 16 Aug 2020, 10:51pm

kwackers wrote:
richtea99 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I occured to me that most of the weight of those Transit/Sprinter type parcel vans is the van's ICE engine and fuel load for all day running,as most of the payload is pretty lightweight parcels,so swapping ICE for elec motors and batteries might return far better economy especially if there more quick fire charging stations.


Electric vehicles tend to be heavier than their internal combustion equivalents, so I don't think there's a weight saving to be made. The electric motor is lighter than an ICE, but the batteries needed to reach the 200+ mile range a delivery van needs are blooming heavy (compared to a full petrol tank).

Depends on the delivery van.
The majority of local vans - post, parcels etc do nothing like 200 miles. They spend most of the day with their engine idling outside peoples houses - worst of all worlds.
Even tradesman vans tend to simply drive to a localish point and stay there all day.

I think small vans should almost be the first thing that's encouraged to go electric.


They will very soon by all accounts:- https://youtu.be/I781itRPJH8 :wink:
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richtea99
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby richtea99 » 16 Aug 2020, 11:23pm

kwackers wrote:I think small vans should almost be the first thing that's encouraged to go electric.


Quite agree. My point - not very well put! - was that weight wasn't a saving. Using electric definitely is, if the vehicle pricing is correct!

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Mick F
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 17 Aug 2020, 3:37pm

Small vans?
Surely it depends on the locality and the "round"?

After leaving the RN in 1996, I had a part-time job with a local company who specialised in car body parts, so we delivered to all the body-shops. Sills, wings, wheel-arches, bonnets, door-skins, front panels .................. etc etc plus finishing products like filler, abrasives and paint, plus steel sheets for fabrication.

Two of us drivers. I did Monday to Wednesday, and the Max did Thursday and Friday.
Minimum wage came in then ........ and we got a pay-rise! :D

Any road up, we would do 100miles + a day.
Fully loaded Escort (high roof) van, and then later a Berlingo van.

Fully loaded.
Gunnislake based, and out as far as Bodmin, Tintagel and Boscastle, Camelford and Delabole, down to Lostwithiel and St Austell, and Looe and Plymouth and right out to Ivybridge and beyond.

Look at a map and see our footprint.

An electric van could not have done it.
Mick F. Cornwall

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 17 Aug 2020, 3:45pm

What range would you estimate was needed?

Jonathan

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Mick F
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 17 Aug 2020, 5:51pm

For us back then, 100miles as a round trip, then the van was driven back to the home where the owner of the business lived a few miles away.

The van came back to base at 8ish AM, and we were away and delivering at 9ish.
Back at base by 3ish or 4ish, but sometimes called back to to collect/deliver more.

Can a Escort-sized electric van used for stop-start deliveries do 100miles having left fully loaded???
To be honest, I don't know, but I do know that range anxiety would have been an issue, as our customers wouldn't or couldn't wait.
Mick F. Cornwall

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 17 Aug 2020, 6:03pm

Thanks.

AFAICT the longest range on something Berlingesque would be the battery-only Renault Kazoo: 120 real world miles.

https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/kangoo-ze.html
https://www.whatcar.com/renault/kangoo/van/review/n20116

But NB Renault's own information warns about shorter range in winter...

Jonathan

PS:

There is a rumoured van in the VW ID range. I'm expecting the Golfish ID.3 to make major changes to perception of EVs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._series

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2020, 8:22pm

Mick F wrote:An electric van could not have done it.

You sound pretty certain - have you tried?

A Nissan NV200 has a minimum 127 mile range and upto around 187 WLTP (which IME unless you're nailing it is slightly pessimistic).

The fully loaded doesn't bother them that much, you lose a bit going up hills but you gain it on the way down - particularly if you can regen all the way down which happens surprising often in an EV.
EV's out-torque equivalent vehicles and do so from a standing start so hills don't worry them that much.
Stop start is also a lot more efficient than an equivalent IC due to the regen.

And if you're driving it all day then stopping for your lunch then giving it a quick squirt at a charger whilst you're eating would help enormously.
I don't know about the Nissan but you'd get 50-60 miles added in about 15 minutes in my car.

IMO electric vans are a bit like the cars.
Everyone can find a reason not to have one but the reality is they're more than good enough for 95% of users and only 1 maybe 2 iterations away from being suitable for 99%.
Once you get out of the IC mindset and adapt to the new 'way' it's surprisingly easy to live with.

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 17 Aug 2020, 8:28pm

That sounds right to me.

Jonathan

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 17 Aug 2020, 8:33pm

Kwackers, you're far more knowledgable than me - or most of us - on this subject.
I still feel that delivery drivers and business owners would be concerned about range etc. as you never know when you're going to be called out or diverted. I regularly did 100miles, but sometimes the van went out after I'd finished my allotted hours.

As for lunch, I was driving from 9am to 3pm up and down the roads and in and out of places and never stopped for a break.
If I took a sarnie to work with me, I'd be eating it "on the hoof".

Jdsk wrote: ......But NB Renault's own information warns about shorter range in winter...
Yes, it's obvious because you need the heater on at least. The issue is a cold battery too.

We have a Yaris Hybrid, and the summer economy is about 60mpg even with the (electric) aircon working hard to cool us down.
In the winter, we get about 50mpg as the engine needs to run more just to provide hot water for the heater.

EVs have an electric heater AND electric aircon, so that consumes battery.

I say "aircon" and "heater" but I mean Climate Control. Our CC is on permanently as it has been in the past two cars we've had with it.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 17 Aug 2020, 8:40pm

Mick F wrote:EVs have an electric heater AND electric aircon, so that consumes battery.

The heater knocks off about 4 miles in the winter. My car has a 3Kw heater but once the cars warm it looked like it was pulling less than 1kw - which means the car could run the heater for 2 days solid.
The AC uses even less because obviously it's just a compressor.

That's also another good thing. Turn the car on in the morning and within seconds there's warm air coming through the grill! Windows cleared in seconds...


Cold batteries are the biggest range killer which is why more and more EV's have battery heating.