Electric power points for e-vehicles

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 19 Aug 2020, 2:01pm

axel_knutt wrote:Which have just published this year's car reliability survey from 47000 owners of 55000 cars.

Electric cars are the least reliable of all the fuel types, and the Tesla the least reliable of the electrics.

Did they combine results for build quality with those for reliability in that survey?

Thanks

Jonathan

kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 19 Aug 2020, 5:25pm

axel_knutt wrote:Which have just published this year's car reliability survey from 47000 owners of 55000 cars.

Electric cars are the least reliable of all the fuel types, and the Tesla the least reliable of the electrics. The only reliable one was the MkI Nissan Leaf. Petrol hybrids are the most reliable, but mainly because such a high proportion of them are made by the most reliable brand: Lexus/Toyota. Plug-in hybrids aren't much better than electrics.

That's not too surprising if you put it into context.

Most EV's are pretty new models, in fact the majority have only hit the market in the last 12 months so there's no iteration of existing models.
As a rule a brand new model of anything comes with faults, like it or not the manufacturers don't get everything right from the off.
(And if we're going further back then there are so few models the stats would be massively skewed)

The mk1 Leaf has seen many iterations, the dodgy first models (of which there were plenty) have been replaced and updated so it has the benefit of being a mature car.
(Although the air cooled battery isn't great)

I bought my first Mini back when I'd never seen another on the road. It was a bag of poo. a few years later I PX'd it for another and that's been great, lasted 15 years with only a sensor failure at 110,000 miles that cost £60 to replace. (Would have lasted longer if some scally hadn't danced on the roof).
All the stupid faults the original had; leaking into the cabin, faulty steering pump, door electrics that rotted (amongst others) had all been sorted by the time I bought the second one.

Tesla has come from nowhere in not a lot of time so it's understandable if there are some issues.
But again the early Model S problems have all been sorted, ditto Model X, the early Model 3 issues are mainly sorted and the Model Y is new.
Disappointing given the price of the car but then some of the most unreliable cars are expensive BM's, Jags. Range Rovers etc.
What matters here is how good the company and dealership is and whilst I don't own a Tesla the people I know that do seem to think the response from them for any issues is second to none.
Ultimately Teslas are "so dodgy" they hold their second hand value far better than any new car on the market today which speaks volumes.

I think once you start to see decent numbers of EV's and iterations over existing models you'll see the numbers better reflect the reality.

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willcee
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby willcee » 19 Aug 2020, 7:35pm

Kwackers.. as someone who has in their lifetime built perhaps 3 doz cars from bare shell or chassis up, you're trying to tell me that a normal car that you step out of any evening when you step back into it next morning you will in cold weather find it immediately has glass opaque with condensation.. and just where does this mositure laden air mainifest itself from.. if a car is dry inside with no moisture the air inside is dry as well unless it has a water leak ingress either from a windscreen joint or sunroof beading or blocked sunroof drain tubes or a leaking heater condensor rad.. sorry, i understand physics perhaps in practical terms more than most.. but a dry car inside will never condense overnight or immediately you enter... will

kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 19 Aug 2020, 8:14pm

willcee wrote:Kwackers.. as someone who has in their lifetime built perhaps 3 doz cars from bare shell or chassis up, you're trying to tell me that a normal car that you step out of any evening when you step back into it next morning you will in cold weather find it immediately has glass opaque with condensation.. and just where does this mositure laden air mainifest itself from.. if a car is dry inside with no moisture the air inside is dry as well unless it has a water leak ingress either from a windscreen joint or sunroof beading or blocked sunroof drain tubes or a leaking heater condensor rad.. sorry, i understand physics perhaps in practical terms more than most.. but a dry car inside will never condense overnight or immediately you enter... will

Where does the moist air come from?

I'd have thought that was obvious - outside.

This morning when I got up to go for a run the outside of my car was saturated with condensation - that tells me the air is moist and the car cold enough for the air to condense.

How do you open a car door without allowing outside air in?
What about turning on the blower?
What about your breath? What if you've been rained on - particularly if you've been doing exercise.

If your car is leaking that's wet carpets, it's not damp air until you heat it up.

There are dozens of ways for moist air to get into your car and steam up the windows - if there wasn't why do folk like Mick feel the need to keep his A/C on to keep them clear?
Why do they build cars with buttons for clearing windows - on mine that button turns on the A/C, turns the recycling on and turns on the heated windows and mirrors.
Perhaps they know something you don't...

Cars have "steamed up" since someone first fitted a roof and windows.

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mjr
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby mjr » 19 Aug 2020, 8:27pm

It was really great cycling today in a cape. No condensation because no windows. ;)

Isn't keeping the AC on all the time a waste of energy and thereby increased pollution?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 19 Aug 2020, 10:02pm

Jdsk wrote:
axel_knutt wrote:Which have just published this year's car reliability survey from 47000 owners of 55000 cars.

Electric cars are the least reliable of all the fuel types, and the Tesla the least reliable of the electrics.

Did they combine results for build quality with those for reliability in that survey?

Yes:
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/car-reliability/most-reliable-cars#Revealed

Jonathan

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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Gangzoom » 21 Aug 2020, 5:40am

Am not entirely sure the relevance of EV public charging points to eBikes? But I've been driving EVs since 2015, and currently have owned our Model X for 3.5 years doing 46k.

We been to France, Scotland, regularly do Leicester to Cardiff/London in it all without issues. Its also one of only a few EVs rated for a tow car, which comes in very handy as a cyclists:).

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I've owned some great cars in my time, DC 2 Teg, 350Z, and my last combustion car was a modified 335i running 380 WHP. But our X is simply on a different level, its the BEST car I have ever owned and by a long margin, I honestly wouldn't swap if for any other car onsale today with the exception of maybe a Taycan.

Oh our other car is a Lexus IS300H, so one of the most reliable cars on the market, it was bought new in 2015 and currently done 31k, we took delivery of our current Model X in October 2017 and its done 36k, those figures I think show you which car we perfer to us as a family:).

Image

Image

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 21 Aug 2020, 8:39am

Thanks for the personal experience: the importance of these is discussed above.

Jonathan

PS: Has anyone ever charged an eBike from a Tesla's batteries? : - )

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Mick F
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Mick F » 21 Aug 2020, 9:06am

kwackers wrote:Cars have "steamed up" since someone first fitted a roof and windows.
SOME cars have steamed up.

Not had a steamed up window on any car since packing up with Minis fifteen years ago ........... original real ones, saloons, vans, estates. Other cars haven't misted up since maybe the early 1980s.

Chucked it down on and off yesterday and the day before, and was really stormy overnight last night. Everywhere is damp and dank out there now, and with the hint of drizzle in the air.

Not driven the car since Wednesday afternoon, and that was only a couple of miles, and before that, it was Sunday.
I'll be off in it later this morning.
I promise I'll own up if there's ANY moisture inside anywhere even on the windows.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were to put odds on that the car will mist up this morning, it would be 1000s to One against.
Mick F. Cornwall

kwackers
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 21 Aug 2020, 9:52am

Mick F wrote:I'm not a betting man, but if I were to put odds on that the car will mist up this morning, it would be 1000s to One against.

My point is that you rely on the A/C to dry the air.
willcee is claiming that only faulty cars steam up.

Prior to A/C, especially back in the early days with small cabins and vertical windscreens in front of your face, steaming up was a given most mornings.
These days I think it takes a special sort of day to start to steam up before the A/C can work.

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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby sjs » 21 Aug 2020, 10:26am

rfryer wrote:
kwackers wrote:What's going to be interesting is how it pans out when typical EV's have ranges in the 300-400 miles.
What will that mean for rapid chargers? Folk coming out of their houses to a fully charged car - why would they bother with a rapid charge?
Perhaps the future isn't a huge number of chargers after all.

I think that rapid chargers will remain important, but not something that most drivers use everyday.

I've been driving an EV with a 300 mile range for the last month, and until this weekend I've just been charging it at home, overnight, around once per week.

This weekend has been a trip from north Cumbria to near the south coast, so my first time to use rapid charging. The sat-nav routed me via a charge point, told me how long to charge for, and the level of charge I'd arrive with. After 3 hours on the road I was ready for a break, and I was the only user at the bank of around 10 charging points.

In summary, using an EV has not delayed my long journey at all, and has saved me needing to stop in at petrol stations at all over the last three months. It's all good!


We've had a Model 3 Long Range for a couple of months, and until last week had only charged it at home, with no problems, and the occasional top-up at the supermarket. In the last week we spent a few days at a B&B in Devon. As reported above, no problem getting there; 30 minutes at a supercharger while we had a coffee. Actually being there was slightly more of a pain, given that I was loath to negotiate with the B&B to use their electricity; nearest fast charger was at a petrol station about 18 miles away. 50 kW is fast, but still slow enough to be a bit tedious if you have to wait. And the second time we tried to use it it was out of order, the one a few miles down the road was just a single one, and was in use. The third one we tried was in the car park of a pub (great!), but they wouldn't let us have a drink ("fully booked, distancing regulations, covid, blah blah") so we sat in the car for an hour while it charged).
I think there's only one supercharger location west of the M5, and the number of operators of other chargers is large, and confusing, some needing an RFID card, others needing a specific app to be installed on a smartphone, others just a contactless payment. So it's a great car, we really like it, but there's a little way to go before recharging is as trouble-free as in conventional vehicles.

Oh, and the rear right door has developed a squeak, and on one occasion the offside wing mirror failed to unfold when the car was unlocked. And, there is no manual way to open either the glovebox or the front "boot". How silly is that? Still like it though.

Jdsk
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Re: Electric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 21 Aug 2020, 10:36am

Thanks.

Any experiences of carrying bikes, please?

Jonathan

hjd10
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby hjd10 » 21 Aug 2020, 10:58am

sjs wrote:
rfryer wrote:
kwackers wrote:What's going to be interesting is how it pans out when typical EV's have ranges in the 300-400 miles.
What will that mean for rapid chargers? Folk coming out of their houses to a fully charged car - why would they bother with a rapid charge?
Perhaps the future isn't a huge number of chargers after all.

I think that rapid chargers will remain important, but not something that most drivers use everyday.

I've been driving an EV with a 300 mile range for the last month, and until this weekend I've just been charging it at home, overnight, around once per week.

This weekend has been a trip from north Cumbria to near the south coast, so my first time to use rapid charging. The sat-nav routed me via a charge point, told me how long to charge for, and the level of charge I'd arrive with. After 3 hours on the road I was ready for a break, and I was the only user at the bank of around 10 charging points.

In summary, using an EV has not delayed my long journey at all, and has saved me needing to stop in at petrol stations at all over the last three months. It's all good!


We've had a Model 3 Long Range for a couple of months, and until last week had only charged it at home, with no problems, and the occasional top-up at the supermarket. In the last week we spent a few days at a B&B in Devon. As reported above, no problem getting there; 30 minutes at a supercharger while we had a coffee. Actually being there was slightly more of a pain, given that I was loath to negotiate with the B&B to use their electricity; nearest fast charger was at a petrol station about 18 miles away. 50 kW is fast, but still slow enough to be a bit tedious if you have to wait. And the second time we tried to use it it was out of order, the one a few miles down the road was just a single one, and was in use. The third one we tried was in the car park of a pub (great!), but they wouldn't let us have a drink ("fully booked, distancing regulations, covid, blah blah") so we sat in the car for an hour while it charged).
I think there's only one supercharger location west of the M5, and the number of operators of other chargers is large, and confusing, some needing an RFID card, others needing a specific app to be installed on a smartphone, others just a contactless payment. So it's a great car, we really like it, but there's a little way to go before recharging is as trouble-free as in conventional vehicles.

Oh, and the rear right door has developed a squeak, and on one occasion the offside wing mirror failed to unfold when the car was unlocked. And, there is no manual way to open either the glovebox or the front "boot". How silly is that? Still like it though.


Do you have yours on a pcp? I know a couple of people who drive Tesla’s and they both have a pcp. My problem is by the time the car is in my price bracket it will be 2nd hand and I can only imagine her expense that would be incurred if there is an issue. As the tech moves on the reliability will increase with costs coming down. ICE cars are on their way out as we know, I just can’t justify paying a pcp that’s more than my mortgage.

kwackers
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby kwackers » 21 Aug 2020, 11:50am

hjd10 wrote:Do you have yours on a pcp? I know a couple of people who drive Tesla’s and they both have a pcp. My problem is by the time the car is in my price bracket it will be 2nd hand and I can only imagine her expense that would be incurred if there is an issue. As the tech moves on the reliability will increase with costs coming down. ICE cars are on their way out as we know, I just can’t justify paying a pcp that’s more than my mortgage.

Not aimed at me I know.

I specced a Tesla several times on their website but just couldn't bring myself to part with that much cash - I think regardless of how you're buying a car going on the website and actually seeing the full price on the screen is a bit of an eye opener for what is ultimately just a metal box with wheels.
Ultimately that's why I went with a car almost half the price and my savings thank me for it.

Teslas currently enjoy good resale values, probably the best of any new car. But the main driver behind this has been a lack of choice and limited supply / large demand.
Other companies are fast catching up though. Batteries are getting bigger, supply is increasing and major marques are getting onboard so whether they can continue to demand a premium both new and second hand remains to be seen.
They're an innovative car, there's no doubt (although personally I dislike the lack of buttons).

I honestly think though the EV market is going to shake up in a few years, had my car not been dying I would personally have hung on or possibly bought a second hand cheap EV to do the majority of the low mileage trips I make just using the IC for longer trips.
It's going to get very interesting when the ID3 arrives I think...

Jdsk
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Re: electrtric power points for e-vehicles

Postby Jdsk » 21 Aug 2020, 11:57am

kwackers wrote:It's going to get very interesting when the ID3 arrives I think...

Agreed.

And the ID.4 has just started production.
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/ ... ickau-6299

Jonathan