Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc.
hamish
Posts: 460
Joined: 5 Mar 2008, 11:29pm

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby hamish » 25 Aug 2020, 7:48pm

Oldjohnw wrote:I don't think that there is any I who should or shouldn't be riding one. But that is not the same as saying that the speed limit should be removed.


I agree.

There are very few people for whom an ebike wouldn't increase the numbers of journeys a bike can be used for instead of a car. My bike can carry me and 80kg up a 1:4 hill at the end of a 30 mile shopping trip that I would probably have used the car for.

hamish
Posts: 460
Joined: 5 Mar 2008, 11:29pm

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby hamish » 25 Aug 2020, 8:07pm

The Netherlands seem to have been wresting with this issue for a while.

Relevant information here and on some of the linked pages: https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/275-new-laws-for-speed-pedelecs-in-2017

Mike_Ayling
Posts: 258
Joined: 25 Sep 2017, 3:02am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby Mike_Ayling » 26 Aug 2020, 8:48am

hamish wrote:The Netherlands seem to have been wresting with this issue for a while.

Relevant information here and on some of the linked pages: https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/275-new-laws-for-speed-pedelecs-in-2017


Seems quite sensible to me.

Mike

kwackers
Posts: 15039
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby kwackers » 26 Aug 2020, 10:31am

hamish wrote:The Netherlands seem to have been wresting with this issue for a while.

Relevant information here and on some of the linked pages: https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/275-new-laws-for-speed-pedelecs-in-2017

Four year old article, how did it pan out in the end?

NickWi
Posts: 158
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 8:14pm

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby NickWi » 26 Aug 2020, 11:46am

Looks like they still considering the idea, or at least were pre CV19.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/26/2115 ... edelec-isa

PH
Posts: 9613
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby PH » 26 Aug 2020, 12:14pm

kwackers wrote:
hamish wrote:The Netherlands seem to have been wresting with this issue for a while.

Relevant information here and on some of the linked pages: https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/275-new-laws-for-speed-pedelecs-in-2017

Four year old article, how did it pan out in the end?

The end of what? The World? It all ends badly.
Everything else is ongoing.

kwackers
Posts: 15039
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby kwackers » 26 Aug 2020, 1:20pm

I'll be honest, I'm curious as to what people want from transport.
(And I don't mean all the retired folk on here that can choose when and where they get to tootle quietly and slowly around, I mean actual "Transport").

The current system we have is what you get when you want to maintain the status quo. When you won't change anything in case it upsets the apple cart so you just add more and more of the same.

Over the years almost every suggested change on these forums has been shot down.
"Too dangerous"
"Doesn't mix well"
"Doesn't go far enough"

It's almost as if on the one hand folk *think* they want revolutionary change but run back to their safe space at the merest mention of pretty much any change at all.
(And don't make the mistake of thinking this is just about adding a couple of mph to the speed of a bike, this has been the case for pretty much any suggested change.)


I'll be back in my car soon enough after probably in excess of 10 years and 60,000 miles of commuting by bike.
I rarely cycle for pleasure and I won't be cycling for transport, if I'm not in the car then I'll be on the train and if I'm on the train then I reckon I'll use an escooter (another thing that doesn't mix well, is too dangerous, too fast blah blah blah).
I should probably bow out of these forums as an ex-bicycle-user (I don't think I've ever considered myself a cyclist - the connotations simply don't sit well with how I see my bicycle use).


As a quick aside, I love the way people are happy to grab that extra 2mph that's supposedly legally allowed for their ebikes whilst dismissing another 3 as being too fast.
Some top quality thinking there...

PH
Posts: 9613
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby PH » 26 Aug 2020, 4:58pm

kwackers wrote:I'll be honest, I'm curious as to what people want from transport.
(And I don't mean all the retired folk on here that can choose when and where they get to tootle quietly and slowly around, I mean actual "Transport").

You keep being dismissive of those you consider slower than you as if they didn't count, that's me, yet for the last two years I've made most of my income on a bike, averaging over a thousand miles a month and 80% of it urban. I've heard so many times in this thread about how slow I am that I was starting to develop a complex. So I had a look - Even on the Cycling UK Strava group (Which will be all cycling enthusiasts so probably a bit faster than the average) the average speed is around 13.7mph, mine is slightly higher than that, yet on the flat in neutral conditions I'll rarely see 20mph. The idea that it's a speed that most people cycle at simply isn't true, it's borne out by daily experience and every statistic I can find.
No one disputes that your specific journey would be enhanced by a faster e-bike, but the distance is twice the national average, you have a good train service to compare it to and the use of an EV as an alternative, hardly typical is it? We can't base the law on a few extremes, at either end.
Then you say you'd be happy to be excluded from using cycle paths on such a machine, yet there's no mechanism for doing that, neither have you proposed one. Except there is of course, you just won't accept the regulation that goes with it. I doubt you're speaking for many either, the speed e-bike users in the Netherlands fought hard not to be excluded.
Several times you've bought up the danger of speed differentials with motor vehicles - yet when asked you don't say what speed you think an e-bike would need to go to eliminate that. But the idea that everyone has to go at the faster speed to reduce that danger is anything but progressive, it's a complete dead end, it just further marginalises the slower users (As in nearly all cyclists) I don't know any organisation or campaigners that are calling for that, in most urban environments it's to everyone's advantage to lower those speeds and where that's not possible to engineer an environment where those at different speeds can safely co-exist, that's progressive. But if you really want to think ahead, the question is not how you travel but why. Your're looking for solutions on how to quickly travel 40 miles to work every day, it's the wrong question, it's the one people have been asking for generations. If that's the only question you can think to ask, you're always going to be disappointed by the answer.
Lastly, this idea that making e-bikes a bit quicker will encourage people out of their cars - lets see the evidence. You're very quick to dismiss any evidence that suggests otherwise, but you've presented nothing that supports it, so lets see it. A report I read recently (It may have been a few years old so you'll reject it) surveyed (So you'll probably reject it a second time) e-bike users and those considering becoming users as to why they used/might use one. 11% of the current users gave saving time as a benefit, that isn't as the main benefit, they could choose more than one, it was just as some benefit, of the potential users that went up to 13%. The reason for that isn't hard to work out, for most journeys it's insignificant, simple as that.

kwackers
Posts: 15039
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby kwackers » 26 Aug 2020, 6:16pm

PH wrote:You keep being dismissive of those you consider slower than you as if they didn't count, that's me, yet for the last two years

No, I simply consider that getting people out of cars and into bikes is more important than folk who use bicycles as a hobby - hence the "retired folk" comment.
If you're using your bike as such you probably don't care about speed. If you use your bike to make a living or commute you probably do - and those are the folk who are often sat in cars.

The rest of your tldr post I'll simply take as "I'm happy with the way things are thanks".
Despite what you think that's actually fine with me, if folk don't want change I'm good with that - as long as they stfu whining about how crap it is out there.
Ultimately everything is a compromise, if it wasn't we'd remove bicycles from shared use paths because imo half the cyclists on them haven't a clue what shared use actually means.

P.S you seem to have missed the bit where I said that this wasn't simply about adding a couple of mph (3) to the current speed limit but pretty much anything to do with changing the way things currently work.

arnsider
Posts: 269
Joined: 27 Jul 2011, 12:44am

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby arnsider » 26 Aug 2020, 6:23pm

Again, if you want more speed, buy an electric motor bike and pay the extra in insurance and quite possibly a tax around the corner.
The idea is pathetic and adds nothing to cycling whatever, other than promoting yet another Dick measuring competition.

kwackers
Posts: 15039
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby kwackers » 26 Aug 2020, 6:32pm

arnsider wrote:Again, if you want more speed, buy an electric motor bike and pay the extra in insurance and quite possibly a tax around the corner.
The idea is pathetic and adds nothing to cycling whatever, other than promoting yet another Dick measuring competition.

The only pathetic thing is having to MOT, have a licence and all the other paraphernalia on a 'thing' that is nothing more than a bicycle with a teeny motor.

I already have a motorcycle, why would I go through the hassle of having another?
Shame on me for thinking a small electric bicycle would be better all round than a huge motorcycle...

It's all irrelevant anyway.
No shortage of "illegal" ebikes out there and I doubt they'll go away anytime soon. The plods have important stuff to do like finding folk without masks (being forced to wear a mask - couldn't ask for more on your illegal ebike :lol: )

User avatar
Syd
Posts: 697
Joined: 23 Sep 2018, 2:27pm

Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby Syd » 26 Aug 2020, 7:28pm

I see that 0.006% (7 people) of those on the electoral register in my area have signed the petition.

I suspect it equates to the number I see whizzing about on ‘modified’ ebikes.

hamish
Posts: 460
Joined: 5 Mar 2008, 11:29pm

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby hamish » 26 Aug 2020, 10:02pm

kwackers wrote:
PH wrote:You keep being dismissive of those you consider slower than you as if they didn't count, that's me, yet for the last two years

No, I simply consider that getting people out of cars and into bikes is more important than folk who use bicycles as a hobby - hence the "retired folk" comment.
If you're using your bike as such you probably don't care about speed. If you use your bike to make a living or commute you probably do - and those are the folk who are often sat in cars.

The rest of your tldr post I'll simply take as "I'm happy with the way things are thanks".
Despite what you think that's actually fine with me, if folk don't want change I'm good with that - as long as they stfu whining about how crap it is out there.
Ultimately everything is a compromise, if it wasn't we'd remove bicycles from shared use paths because imo half the cyclists on them haven't a clue what shared use actually means.

P.S you seem to have missed the bit where I said that this wasn't simply about adding a couple of mph (3) to the current speed limit but pretty much anything to do with changing the way things currently work.


I am not sure we will get people out of cars simply by raising the speed limit to 20mph for an ebike.

I am not happy with the way things are. I would like to see the cost of motoring rise significantly and much more investment in active travel alternatives. But I wouldn't like to see the most vulnerable users impacted by deregulation of electric bikes.

Anyway, The Dutch system seems to make sense to me. Fast ebikes are allowed and regulated but can't mess up the relative harmony on the shared use path. I am not sure how it is going for them there?

Gangzoom
Posts: 34
Joined: 11 Feb 2020, 12:05pm

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby Gangzoom » 27 Aug 2020, 5:15am

So 3500 signatures in 6 months, no one with any real power will even notice that as its deleted from records.

As an eBike owner I have no interest in this petition, if you want go quicker on 2 wheels legally buy a moped its pretty simple.

UpWrong
Posts: 1023
Joined: 31 May 2009, 12:16pm
Location: Portsmouth, Hampshire

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

Postby UpWrong » 28 Aug 2020, 4:34pm

Jdsk wrote:
hamish wrote:1. Restricted ebikes mix well with other cyclists. Push it to 20mph and the ebikes will become a nuisance and cause problems. Yes I know many cyclists exceed 20mph, but on busy cycle paths most don't and the ones that do are often a pain.

Agreed, and for me that might be the decisive point.

Mopeds on cycle paths in other countries definitely make it less enjoyable for us.

Jonathan


+1. Not signing.