Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Nothing new here, we've had these discussions/disagreements in the past, it's all been said.
This petition though seems both ill informed and ill timed. In the first instance it makes claims that people don't take up using e-bikes because of the speed difference with cars, I've never seen anything that would indicate this raise would make any difference to that. I do a lot of urban riding and the the time I feel most vulnerable is pulling away from a junction. All vehicles that accelerate faster than me add to that, including many e-bikes, which I find increasingly trying to squeeze between me and an overtaking car in a space that isn't adequate. On the timing, there are powered scooter trials underway (Though I know little about them) I'd expect any resulting legislation to encompass all these small electric vehicles. Whatever that legislation turns out to be, it isn't going to please everyone, but IMO the current maximum assisted speed seems to fit in reasonably well with most other vehicle traffic on on cycle and shared use facilities. I am not in the slightest concerned with the level of effort the rider is contributing, I would suspect that removing the requirement to pedal would have more effect on increasing popularity than raising the speed.
This petition though seems both ill informed and ill timed. In the first instance it makes claims that people don't take up using e-bikes because of the speed difference with cars, I've never seen anything that would indicate this raise would make any difference to that. I do a lot of urban riding and the the time I feel most vulnerable is pulling away from a junction. All vehicles that accelerate faster than me add to that, including many e-bikes, which I find increasingly trying to squeeze between me and an overtaking car in a space that isn't adequate. On the timing, there are powered scooter trials underway (Though I know little about them) I'd expect any resulting legislation to encompass all these small electric vehicles. Whatever that legislation turns out to be, it isn't going to please everyone, but IMO the current maximum assisted speed seems to fit in reasonably well with most other vehicle traffic on on cycle and shared use facilities. I am not in the slightest concerned with the level of effort the rider is contributing, I would suspect that removing the requirement to pedal would have more effect on increasing popularity than raising the speed.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
I have a Ecargo bike. It is great. I can ride up to the 16mph mark and if conditions are favorable, use my legs up to 20+ mph.
It makes my hilly journeys faster than on my other bikes. I know many will disagree with me but... If there was a vote I'd vote against raising the limit. Why...
1. Restricted ebikes mix well with other cyclists. Push it to 20mph and the ebikes will become a nuisance and cause problems. Yes I know many cyclists exceed 20mph, but on busy cycle paths most don't and the ones that do are often a pain.
2. There is no need because 15.5 is fast enough and often you can exceed that speed with your legs
3. The current law is simple, clear and precautionary. So it's less likely to allow ebikes and e-cyclists to stick out and get treated differently from other cyclists. It is being treated like an ordinary bike that makes ebikes special.
If my bike would power me to 20mph I'd use it and enjoy it, but I'm glad the law stops me from doing so. It means my other bikes remain a competitive option when chosing which to use for a journey and it means I use my legs more and power less on an average ebike trip.
It makes my hilly journeys faster than on my other bikes. I know many will disagree with me but... If there was a vote I'd vote against raising the limit. Why...
1. Restricted ebikes mix well with other cyclists. Push it to 20mph and the ebikes will become a nuisance and cause problems. Yes I know many cyclists exceed 20mph, but on busy cycle paths most don't and the ones that do are often a pain.
2. There is no need because 15.5 is fast enough and often you can exceed that speed with your legs
3. The current law is simple, clear and precautionary. So it's less likely to allow ebikes and e-cyclists to stick out and get treated differently from other cyclists. It is being treated like an ordinary bike that makes ebikes special.
If my bike would power me to 20mph I'd use it and enjoy it, but I'm glad the law stops me from doing so. It means my other bikes remain a competitive option when chosing which to use for a journey and it means I use my legs more and power less on an average ebike trip.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
The main thing I have against eBikes is the smug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz the motors make as they cruise past me up hills. This has regrettable effects on my character: lately I've developed a tendency to inspect the crotch bottom bracket of any sit-up-and-beg bike I see approaching on a cycle path before deciding to say hello. Increase the speed limit so that I can't leave the buggers behind on the flat and I'll get really narky.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Audax67 wrote:The main thing I have against eBikes is the smug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz the motors make as they cruise past me up hills. This has regrettable effects on my character: lately I've developed a tendency to inspect the crotch bottom bracket of any sit-up-and-beg bike I see approaching on a cycle path before deciding to say hello. Increase the speed limit so that I can't leave the buggers behind on the flat and I'll get really narky.
I guess the whole sectarian divide between different groups of cyclists is part of the problem... In reality, ebikes offer the chance for a reduction in car use and that's why I ended up with my ebike. It eats into my car mileage the reduction in which had stubbornly plateaued.
Ebikes as a viable mode of transport are what interest me. We need to make sure that their development is maximised and accepted. Faster ebikes could, on balance, hinder that.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
hamish wrote:1. Restricted ebikes mix well with other cyclists. Push it to 20mph and the ebikes will become a nuisance and cause problems. Yes I know many cyclists exceed 20mph, but on busy cycle paths most don't and the ones that do are often a pain.
Agreed, and for me that might be the decisive point.
Mopeds on cycle paths in other countries definitely make it less enjoyable for us.
Jonathan
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
hamish wrote:I guess the whole sectarian divide between different groups of cyclists is part of the problem... In reality, ebikes offer the chance for a reduction in car use and that's why I ended up with my ebike. It eats into my car mileage the reduction in which had stubbornly plateaued.
Ebikes as a viable mode of transport are what interest me. We need to make sure that their development is maximised and accepted. Faster ebikes could, on balance, hinder that.
My commute is just over 20 miles each way.
I switched to an ebike to make it a doable bike commute for my ageing legs which I did for two years.
It saved me £2,500 a year on train fares and was only 5 minutes slower.
Overall given the relative hassles of cycling that distance I thought it borderline worthwhile particularly as to reach that speed requires a fair input from me and thus I need to be fit which means doing it most days.
Since then changes to the trains mean it's now 25 minutes slower - that's 50 mins a day which make it a lot less attractive.
In fact once I got knocked off my bike last year I haven't bothered making any effort to put it back on the road and started using the train.
Now that C19 has happened my choice (when I'm unfurloughed) is probably to use my EV, it's not as fast as the train but quicker than the bike and by the time I allow for the extra cost of wear and tear on the bike (10,000 miles a year in crap weather is a lot of chains, sprockets and other consumables) I reckon it's not that much more expensive.
TBH I'd actually prefer to go with an "electric moped" but I'm buggered if I'm messing about with MOT's, license plates and all the chaff that goes with them when I've already got a vehicle where that's actually worth the effort to do.
I'm not going to claim that a faster bike would get me back to using a bike to get to work but it would definitely give me some pause for thought, had I not got knocked of *and* been able to use a faster bike then I'm pretty certain though I'd still be using it.
In the meantime I'm back to being Mr Toad.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
kwackers wrote:hamish wrote:I guess the whole sectarian divide between different groups of cyclists is part of the problem... In reality, ebikes offer the chance for a reduction in car use and that's why I ended up with my ebike. It eats into my car mileage the reduction in which had stubbornly plateaued.
Ebikes as a viable mode of transport are what interest me. We need to make sure that their development is maximised and accepted. Faster ebikes could, on balance, hinder that.
My commute is just over 20 miles each way.
I switched to an ebike to make it a doable bike commute for my ageing legs which I did for two years.
It saved me £2,500 a year on train fares and was only 5 minutes slower.
Overall given the relative hassles of cycling that distance I thought it borderline worthwhile particularly as to reach that speed requires a fair input from me and thus I need to be fit which means doing it most days.
Since then changes to the trains mean it's now 25 minutes slower - that's 50 mins a day which make it a lot less attractive.
In fact once I got knocked off my bike last year I haven't bothered making any effort to put it back on the road and started using the train.
Now that C19 has happened my choice (when I'm unfurloughed) is probably to use my EV, it's not as fast as the train but quicker than the bike and by the time I allow for the extra cost of wear and tear on the bike (10,000 miles a year in crap weather is a lot of chains, sprockets and other consumables) I reckon it's not that much more expensive.
TBH I'd actually prefer to go with an "electric moped" but I'm buggered if I'm messing about with MOT's, license plates and all the chaff that goes with them when I've already got a vehicle where that's actually worth the effort to do.
I'm not going to claim that a faster bike would get me back to using a bike to get to work but it would definitely give me some pause for thought, had I not got knocked of *and* been able to use a faster bike then I'm pretty certain though I'd still be using it.
In the meantime I'm back to being Mr Toad.
I get what you are saying. I don't have much experience of this but it seems as though in some places there are two Ebike standards because the infrastructure can cope with the faster bikes - fast bike routes and normal bike routes. But we don't have the same infrastructure and a speed increase that a few of us feel is necessary to make a bike viable for a commute would leave a much larger number of people subject to the problems that 20mph ebikes cause on cycle routes, shared use paths , etc.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
hamish wrote:I get what you are saying. I don't have much experience of this but it seems as though in some places there are two Ebike standards because the infrastructure can cope with the faster bikes - fast bike routes and normal bike routes. But we don't have the same infrastructure and a speed increase that a few of us feel is necessary to make a bike viable for a commute would leave a much larger number of people subject to the problems that 20mph ebikes cause on cycle routes, shared use paths , etc.
The world is changing and fast.
You have to decide what direction you'd prefer our transport to head down.
If the only choice you're giving people is a slow bicycle or a car then don't be too surprised if everything becomes a car. The great thing about EV's is they're cheap as chips to run and soon enough they'll be cheap to buy.
There's a moment in time right now to try to expand lightweight, cheap, easy to use vehicles but IMO we'll miss it and only in retrospect will we see what we did.
Unfortunately this forum doesn't really give me much insight into the way most people think, the folk on here are conservative with a lower case 'c' - older and loathe to change: "if it's alright why change it?" is the war cry - because, well it's "alright" for them.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Sorry Kwackers, I disagree.
Soon enough, the only vehicles will be electric ones ............ and then the people who sell them will still need to make a profit and the costs will soar. VED will be reinstated for EVs and there'll be taxation in charging them up, let alone a tax on MOTs and/or insurance increase.
At this moment in time, the petrol/diesel car drivers are paying the price, and as they approach demise, the loss of revenue has to come from somewhere.
Ten years time?
It will come soon enough.
Soon enough, the only vehicles will be electric ones ............ and then the people who sell them will still need to make a profit and the costs will soar. VED will be reinstated for EVs and there'll be taxation in charging them up, let alone a tax on MOTs and/or insurance increase.
At this moment in time, the petrol/diesel car drivers are paying the price, and as they approach demise, the loss of revenue has to come from somewhere.
Ten years time?
It will come soon enough.
Mick F. Cornwall
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Mick F wrote:Sorry Kwackers, I disagree.
Soon enough, the only vehicles will be electric ones ............ and then the people who sell them will still need to make a profit and the costs will soar. VED will be reinstated for EVs and there'll be taxation in charging them up, let alone a tax on MOTs and/or insurance increase.
At this moment in time, the petrol/diesel car drivers are paying the price, and as they approach demise, the loss of revenue has to come from somewhere.
Ten years time?
It will come soon enough.
Just a few points.
You can't differentiate how electricity is used - and with gas on the way out electricity will just cost whatever electricity costs regardless of what you do with it.
Your meter can't tell the difference between charging your car and warming your house.
Anyway worse case I'd just stick solar panels on my roof. The reality is that nuclear power stations notwithstanding electricity is getting cheaper as more renewables come online - particularly if you can choose when to use it and cars are brilliant devices for storing cheap electricity for use later.
The price of cars is whatever the market supports, no more no less.
EV's will soon be cheaper to make than IC cars and there'll be a choice of decent second hand ones.
Insurance costs are based on the cost of insuring stuff. In the future cars will simply be safer and hence cheaper to insure.
VED may well get reinstated but I'll just hang on to my car and pay nothing but they'll need to change it from the current "pollution" based tax.
As for revenue, there are millions of ways of generating it and I'm sure they'll figure it out - with a two trillion squids deficit probably sooner rather than later.
(Not that I can figure out what you're disagreeing with. Your points seem to have no relevance to my post)
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
I admire your confidence Kwackers.
Fuel is cheap, electricity even cheaper.
Fuel is basically cheap, but inflated by taxation.
VED is taxation too.
Our Toyota hybrid is VED free, as was our Fiat500TA before that, but the new ones of both these cars attract VED money.
EVs are free VED at the moment, but when they become ubiquitous, the VED has to come from somewhere and the fuel taxation will cease ............ therefore the VED will have to take the strain.
The national road network still has to be paid for.
If petrol/diesel taxation has gone, the VED (or similar?) will have to plug the gap.
Buy an EV now, whilst they are cheap to run!
Fuel is cheap, electricity even cheaper.
Fuel is basically cheap, but inflated by taxation.
VED is taxation too.
Our Toyota hybrid is VED free, as was our Fiat500TA before that, but the new ones of both these cars attract VED money.
EVs are free VED at the moment, but when they become ubiquitous, the VED has to come from somewhere and the fuel taxation will cease ............ therefore the VED will have to take the strain.
The national road network still has to be paid for.
If petrol/diesel taxation has gone, the VED (or similar?) will have to plug the gap.
Buy an EV now, whilst they are cheap to run!
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
And electric bikes don't suffer from condensation steaming up their windows.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Mick F wrote:The national road network still has to be paid for.
If petrol/diesel taxation has gone, the VED (or similar?) will have to plug the gap.
Hypothecation ended in 1937.
IFS: "A road map for motoring taxation"... covers externalities and the migration to EVs:
https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/GB2019-Chapter-9-A-road-map-for-motoring-taxation.pdf
Jonathan
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Mick F wrote:I admire your confidence Kwackers.
Fuel is cheap, electricity even cheaper.
Fuel is basically cheap, but inflated by taxation.
VED is taxation too.
Our Toyota hybrid is VED free, as was our Fiat500TA before that, but the new ones of both these cars attract VED money.
EVs are free VED at the moment, but when they become ubiquitous, the VED has to come from somewhere and the fuel taxation will cease ............ therefore the VED will have to take the strain.
The national road network still has to be paid for.
If petrol/diesel taxation has gone, the VED (or similar?) will have to plug the gap.
Buy an EV now, whilst they are cheap to run!
Road pricing.
IMO that's how it should be done now.
Electricity is impossible to regulate because you can't tell where it's going and folk can generate their own for free.
Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
kwackers wrote:hamish wrote:I get what you are saying. I don't have much experience of this but it seems as though in some places there are two Ebike standards because the infrastructure can cope with the faster bikes - fast bike routes and normal bike routes. But we don't have the same infrastructure and a speed increase that a few of us feel is necessary to make a bike viable for a commute would leave a much larger number of people subject to the problems that 20mph ebikes cause on cycle routes, shared use paths , etc.
The world is changing and fast.
You have to decide what direction you'd prefer our transport to head down.
If the only choice you're giving people is a slow bicycle or a car then don't be too surprised if everything becomes a car. The great thing about EV's is they're cheap as chips to run and soon enough they'll be cheap to buy.
There's a moment in time right now to try to expand lightweight, cheap, easy to use vehicles but IMO we'll miss it and only in retrospect will we see what we did.
Unfortunately this forum doesn't really give me much insight into the way most people think, the folk on here are conservative with a lower case 'c' - older and loathe to change: "if it's alright why change it?" is the war cry - because, well it's "alright" for them.
Again, I get what you are saying... But it's a different argument really. I agree that we need to change the way we get about. It's crazy that we use vehicles that weigh two tonnes and can do twice the legal speed limit for journeys of a few miles on our own. It's also a shame that nearly all new EVs tend to mimic conventional cars in size and performance. Ideally we would be able to get and use lightweight electic vehicles to do all kinds of short to medium journeys; and this could include fast ebikes. But they still wouldn't mix well with ordinary bikes on cycle and mixed use paths. For that reason, for an ebike to be considered 'just a bike' I think it's good the restriction sits at 25kph.