Cycling UK Forum

thirdcrank wrote:More generally on e-petitions I think most people realise they are futile. As I must have posted before, they were introduced (by Gordo?) as a bit of a safety valve which occasionally alerts the government to a significant trend in public opinion. Whether they attract signatures or not doesn't really say much about popular thinking. It's my impression and nothing more that there's huge hostility to them - not unlike the hostility towards cyclists.

In the current era there have been versions of the process started under Blair and Cameron (coalition).

Jonathan

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Postby Jdsk » 30 Dec 2020, 8:42pm

Now 4,687 signatories in 11 months.

Jonathan

5,000 out of population of 70,000,000 .That is one person in 14,000.A cyclist in Keswick,Ambleside and the Lakes supports this measure.A similar number have a signed portrait of Des Connor in their bathroom.

mumbojumbo wrote:5,000 out of population of 70,000,000 .That is one person in 14,000.A cyclist in Keswick,Ambleside and the Lakes supports this measure.A similar number have a signed portrait of Des Connor in their bathroom.

It's all relative.

More people have signed a petition in support of increasing the limit than have signed a petition opposing it.
It's fair to assume those who haven't signed either are speed limit agnostic.

kwackers wrote:

mumbojumbo wrote:More people have signed a petition in support of increasing the limit than have signed a petition opposing it.
It's fair to assume those who haven't signed either are speed limit agnostic.

No, not agnostic. They believe that the current limit is a very sensible compromise.

It is a very unusual person who will explicitly sign a petition to keep the status quo; maybe if there is a serious push to change it; and there isn't a serious push to change the speed limit to a higher one as can be seen from how few people have signed.

stodd wrote:No, not agnostic. They believe that the current limit is a very sensible compromise.

It is a very unusual person who will explicitly sign a petition to keep the status quo; maybe if there is a serious push to change it; and there isn't a serious push to change the speed limit to a higher one as can be seen from how few people have signed.

Rubbish.

Someone considered it important enough to create a petition.
Others considered it important enough to cast a vote.

Nobody has created an opposing petition.
Nobody has voted on that none existent petition.
Ergo they don't care enough.

Claiming the non-voters believe the current limit is a sensible compromise doesn't fly.
If they did they'd create a petition and vote on it, yet they haven't.

Just like brexit you can't lay claim to the folk who haven't voted for your position.
You simply don't know so neither side can count them as "theirs".

So currently it would appear more people support the case for an increase in the limit than oppose it.

Why take the time to create a petition to keep something that's already in place just to oppose a petition that really isn't gaining any traction? If someone put up a petition you might oppose or just not support but very few people are voting for it then where is the motivation for an opposing petition? Just let it die on its own and move on.

Seriously don't understand your view. Are you saying that because there's no opposing petition, IMHO because there's no need for one, there's support for the petition to increase the speed limit? Support is simply n signatures on the petition. Anything that's not a signature is simply on the range from meh to oppose. Either way they're not contributing to a petition that will get the government listening. In that case anyone opposing it really need not worry about doing anything to stop what isn't happening.

Tangled Metal wrote:Seriously don't understand your view. Are you saying that because there's no opposing petition, IMHO because there's no need for one, there's support for the petition to increase the speed limit? Support is simply n signatures on the petition. Anything that's not a signature is simply on the range from meh to oppose. Either way they're not contributing to a petition that will get the government listening. In that case anyone opposing it really need not worry about doing anything to stop what isn't happening.

My "view" (as much as I actually care) is simply that more people have been motivated for change than have so far opposed it.

Doesn't matter how you try to spin it, trying to claim that because they haven't voted then they must support the status quo is utter rubbish, simply put we don't know what their view is.
(I haven't voted on it, so what's my view???)

My "actual" view is it makes no difference. Those who want to go faster already are. e-bikes are easily hacked and the reality is that few outside of them really care.

Desire to change can be a great motivator and prompts individuals to stick their head above the parapet quite readily in a free society.

Opposition to change tends only to only cause one to raise their profile when the desire for change reaches a level it is becoming a threat to the status quo.

Simply put, why put effort into something that is unlikely to happen? Less than 5,000 people signing a petition in one year doesn’t pose much of a threat.

However you spin it there's more people with a signed portrait of des O'Connor. How many units of des O'Connor do we need before paying legislation? I suggest a hell of a lot more than one Des. What say you? It's not even got enough for parliament to have to officially acknowledge it. In my book it's another dead duck of a petition.

It's irrelevant how many people signed a petition opposing a speed limit increase when that's could against something that's not happened or not n happening. Petitions are about changing the status quo not to keep it. How many are actually for keeping things as they are utterly pointless.

Nobody's knows what the majority think about this issue but until there's a significant number nobody is going to bother to find out among the Westminster shower. What MP is going to call for this based on 70k signatories?

Tangled Metal wrote:However you spin it there's more people with a signed portrait of des O'Connor. How many units of des O'Connor do we need before paying legislation? I suggest a hell of a lot more than one Des. What say you? It's not even got enough for parliament to have to officially acknowledge it. In my book it's another dead duck of a petition.

Which is a completely pointless comparison.

I'm personally not a fan of petitions. Even when the numbers are high they don't mean very much.
I'm pretty sure you could get significant numbers if you asked people to vote to prevent bicycles using the roads during "busy periods", it wouldn't mean the petition had any value IMO.

I'm much more a believer in direct action. Past experience has shown that often where mass disobedience takes place governments often change the rules rather than clamp down.
An example of this would be if e-scooters become legalised, it won't happen because someone created a petition but rather because of the numbers of people using them.
Conversely if nobody used them legalisation wouldn't even be considered.

swscotland bentrider wrote:Well I won't be signing. There is already provision for electric vehicles to exceed the 25kmh limit as others have said. They are called motor cycles, with all the legal and insurance requirements associated with motor vehicles.
There are other unlooked for consequences. You would increasingly be seen as other than a cyclist. You may lose your welcome in lots of places / organisations. End up homeless unloved and unwanted!!

Many posting here seem to be under the impression that ebikes in the UK are limited to 25kmh. Full stop. It's worth repeating that the limit is only on the speed up to which assistance is given, NOT the speed that the rider of the bike might attain - that is limited only by their fitness and leg muscle strength. Therefore how could an assistance speed level be policed? I ride an Orbea Gain, and it is very easy to exceed 25kmh, when the assistance cuts out, and then one is propelling a relatively heavy road-bike by leg power alone. Mostly no problem, assistance cuts in again when speed drops due to the road going uphill, wind, tiredness etc. Where I have found difficulty is when cycling in a group with fit, able bodied, non-assisted riders, whose speed can easily drift up way over 25kmh, then propelling such a heavy bike unassisted for any appreciable distance becomes very painful for me. Therefore I would welcome an increase in the legal maximum ASSISTED speed - say 30kmh. Perhaps for e-road bikes only. This is my selfish reason for signing the petition, although I appreciate that there is not a hope in hell of the limit being increased.

"Not being seen as a cyclist sounds like a benefit to me."

My bad use of language. I should have said that a rider would risk not being regarded by other cyclists as a cyclist!

mumbojumbo wrote:IWhats the issue.The police will not bother monitoring the speeds attained-they do little about cars which can be identified.If the speed limit is increased by the state they will rightly demand
A tax
B insurance
C a test
D registration plate
These measures would be excellent.

I'd suspect that if the above were introduced for eBikes then there would be a big risk of it being introduced for all bikes. Certainly pressure from those groups who already think cyclists should pay VED, etc. and from a Police perspective not always easy to tell if it's an eBike or a non-eBike. Plus if an eBike needs tax, insurance, a test and registration plate to go above 25 km/h then why not any bike going above 25 km/h? There might be a strong argument that the risks are from the speed rather than what is powering that speed.

Ian

Look at what happened with campervan and conversions. You used to be able to convert a panel van and get the v5 log changed to motorcaravan. Now it's virtually impossible. Reason was public identification. Is it a motor caravan or van with windows?

Is it an e bike, ordinary bike or e motorcycle?

Re: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.
Unread postby kwackers » 31 Dec 2020, 8:21pm

mumbojumbo wrote:
5,000 out of population of 70,000,000 .That is one person in 14,000.A cyclist in Keswick,Ambleside and the Lakes supports this measure.A similar number have a signed portrait of Des Connor in their bathroom.

It's all relative.

More people have signed a petition in support of increasing the limit than have signed a petition opposing it.
It's fair to assume those who haven't signed either are speed limit agnostic.

I imagine most normalpeople take little interest in this new wave of cyclists.