Derestricting motor to 500w - will I notice much difference?

[Bonzo Banana]

It should be pointed out that many fully legal ebikes including with major brand motors like Bosch can have peak wattage of upto about 800W but they have nominal or rated output of 250W. The important thing is the 15.5mph/25km/h assisted speed limit. So when you go up a hill the wattage will peak much higher. The thing is when you derestrict a ebike it often will go well beyond that 15.5mph limit assisted which is illegal and a criminal offence. So the law can be a little confusing regard wattage so ideally just follow the 15.5mph limit.

I really think the legislation is well judged, I mean 250W is a huge amount of additional power and this surges even more going uphills. If you were trying to come up with ebike legislation that enables less fit people to use bikes but still rely partly on their input so their health is improved I think 250W is probably ideal with a 15.5mph limit.

Personally I would confiscate the ebike of anyone riding an unrestricted ebike on the road, it's pretty easy for any policeman to test if a bike will ride beyond 15.5mph assisted they don't have to worry about the wattage and if it does I would simply take it. They could set a margin of error so any bike that goes faster than 18mph assisted is automatically confiscated. I probably wouldn't do anymore than that. No warnings either just taken. If they repeat offend then simply ban them from using ebikes so they are forced to use conventional bikes only.

We need to create a safe environment for cyclists who will be on the roads in greater numbers in the future. Personally I've never seen a high power ebike on the road where I am but youtube is full of videos of people who clearly do ride unrestricted ebikes.

No doubt if it happens we will have loads of youtube videos with titles like 'The police stole my ebike' etc, and I look forward to seeing those.

I think if you have a bike that has a link controller wire that connected restricts speed to 15.5mph but disconnected is up to 30mph like the Voilamart kits then the connector should be connected, taped up and cable tied so it cannot be easily unrestricted. If its a bike that uses hidden menu options to derestrict obviously it is more difficult to permanently restrict the bike.

[kwackers]

Personally I would confiscate the ebike of anyone riding an unrestricted ebike on the road, it's pretty easy for any policeman to test if a bike will ride beyond 15.5mph assisted they don't have to worry about the wattage and if it does I would simply take it. .

Firstly, it isn't actually "easy", they'd need certified equipment to prove it could.

Secondly they'd actually need to ride it and they simply don't do that. So without special testing they can't prove you weren't doing over 15mph under your own steam and without reasonable suspicion they can't simply impound the bike.

The final nail in the coffin of your idea is that the police can't even be bothered policing car drivers, a group responsible for tens of thousands of KSI's a year so the idea they'll take out specialist equipment to look for and test potentially illegal bicycles is frankly laughable.

In fact if you look at complaints about cyclists made to police their time would be better spent pulling up cyclists with no bells, illegal/no lighting, pavement riding etc etc
No special equipment required there and instant public approval guaranteed.

[Bonzo Banana]

Personally I would confiscate the ebike of anyone riding an unrestricted ebike on the road, it's pretty easy for any policeman to test if a bike will ride beyond 15.5mph assisted they don't have to worry about the wattage and if it does I would simply take it. .

Firstly, it isn't actually "easy", they'd need certified equipment to prove it could.

Secondly they'd actually need to ride it and they simply don't do that. So without special testing they can't prove you weren't doing over 15mph under your own steam and without reasonable suspicion they can't simply impound the bike.

The final nail in the coffin of your idea is that the police can't even be bothered policing car drivers, a group responsible for tens of thousands of KSI's a year so the idea they'll take out specialist equipment to look for and test potentially illegal bicycles is frankly laughable.

In fact if you look at complaints about cyclists made to police their time would be better spent pulling up cyclists with no bells, illegal/no lighting, pavement riding etc etc
No special equipment required there and instant public approval guaranteed.

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage. I don't think a lack of bell is actually illegal. I think it is a legal requirement to fit or include one when sold but can be removed legally once purchased. When you combine 30mph assisted speed with very fast accelerating it can be very deadly or cause injury to pedestrians especially where those ebikes are actually sharing pavements with pedestrians on designated cycle paths. They are effectively riding an electric moped along the pavement.

In my opinion it is extremely dangerous and is taken far too lightly at the moment by the police. I certainly also feel any bicycle ridden without lights should also be confiscated and also very dangerous, although more dangerous to themselves.

[kwackers]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.

They need "reasonable suspicion" and since the vehicle can perfectly legitimately travel at any speed it likes then how do you go about that? Gut feeling?
They also can't ride the bike on the road.
Even if they could ride the bike they'd need fairly sophisticated measuring equipment that they could set up at the side of the road and is regularly calibrated.
Sounds expensive to me and fixes a non issue.

In my opinion it is extremely dangerous and is taken far too lightly at the moment by the police. I certainly also feel any bicycle ridden without lights should also be confiscated and also very dangerous, although more dangerous to themselves.

In your opinion...

Care to back it up with facts?
If they were genuinely that much of an issue the police would do something. They're not so they don't.

[philg]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.
.

Raise the wheel off the ground, turn the pedals and read the speed from the display after first checking the wheel diameter is correct?

[kwackers]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.
.

Raise the wheel off the ground, turn the pedals and read the speed from the display after first checking the wheel diameter is correct?

Proves nothing.
First they'd need to understand the operational intricacies of every controller to make sure it's set correctly - and what about home made controllers?
Second a speedo reading would prove nothing that would hold up in court - why do you think they have to use calibrated equipment?

It's not even guaranteed that the bike won't exceed the speed when there's no load - you'd need expert evidence to prove that.

And all of that wouldn't work for my controller which has a bug which requires you to set max assist, pedal and hold the throttle at the same time.

[Antbrewer]

Good evening John
Just a couple of points I would like to raise.. Please don't think I am being argumentative.

It seems very sad that being a lifelong cyclist reaching a point where you cannot cycle on a ''normal'' bike you wouldn't wish to continue on a bike that would just aid you just minimally as and when. I too have exertion induced asthma ( for many many years now) and I am now able to carry on with my passion for as long as I can. As you say it is your choice to give up cycling..???

I cannot understand your thinking or logic here at all

Quote...The way forward for transport is not in my opinion and knowledge, electric, but Hydrogen. Unquote.
However you then go on to say and I quote your words again
Quote...When the day comes that I cannot pedal far enough to be a cyclist, I will buy a motorcycle. I started my 'adult' life with large motorcycles. Hence the spine damage. Unquote...

You are willing to buy a MOTORCYCLE that uses petrol and can cause severe damage to the body in accidents? Maybe it will use hydrogen or LPG???

I just poodle around the countryside on my very safe ebike ( because I have total control) enjoying what I am doing and the countryside. No noise or pollution.
I wish you well whatever mode of ''safe'' transport you use.

[hemo]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.
.

Raise the wheel off the ground, turn the pedals and read the speed from the display after first checking the wheel diameter is correct?

Simply going by the display reading can't be presumed accurate any one could be out by a large factor.

[philg]

What scenario are we trying to cover here?

If the e-bike in question has been involved in an incident sufficiently serious to get the law involved then I assume the bike will be taken away for further investigation?

If it's just a casual investigation (how likely is that??) then the procedure above will determine whether the user has set a legal 25kph or 40+kph
On my machines the speed displayed does agree with the set maximum. I would also have thought anybody with regular contact with bikes can look at a revolving wheel and differentiate between a stately 25kph and a whirling dervish.

[kwackers]

What scenario are we trying to cover here?

If the e-bike in question has been involved in an incident sufficiently serious to get the law involved then I assume the bike will be taken away for further investigation?

If it's just a casual investigation (how likely is that??) then the procedure above will determine whether the user has set a legal 25kph or 40+kph
On my machines the speed displayed does agree with the set maximum. I would also have thought anybody with regular contact with bikes can look at a revolving wheel and differentiate between a stately 25kph and a whirling dervish.

I'm under the impression we're talking about random testing, obviously regarding incidents then it's all irrelevant anyway since they'll figure it out.

There are so many problems with just looking at the revolving wheel that for your average copper it just isn't going to happen and to secure a conviction by itself it's not remotely enough.
So to prove anything plod would have to confiscate your bike anyway to take away for testing.
Confiscating property on the basis of what? Travelling too fast in a built up area??

Most plods probably can't use a ebike, probably don't know how to set it to max assist (since on mine at least each level of assist has a progressively lower top speed).
Then he's got to peddle it with the wheel in the air - what about torque sensors?

Plus there are so many ways around it.
Easiest for me is to move the speed sensor to the front wheel - good luck testing that.
Plus mine as I've mentioned several times has a bug that allows you to defeat the limits with a convoluted set of operations which wouldn't show up at the roadside.

[Bonzo Banana]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.

They need "reasonable suspicion" and since the vehicle can perfectly legitimately travel at any speed it likes then how do you go about that? Gut feeling?
They also can't ride the bike on the road.
Even if they could ride the bike they'd need fairly sophisticated measuring equipment that they could set up at the side of the road and is regularly calibrated.
Sounds expensive to me and fixes a non issue.

In my opinion it is extremely dangerous and is taken far too lightly at the moment by the police. I certainly also feel any bicycle ridden without lights should also be confiscated and also very dangerous, although more dangerous to themselves.

In your opinion...

Care to back it up with facts?
If they were genuinely that much of an issue the police would do something. They're not so they don't.

If I was measuring the speed of a ebike, you have speed cameras, GPS, the bikes own computer speed, you could set out a distance on the ground and time how far the vehicle takes to travel that set distance and calculate speed. The accuracy doesn't have to be amazing anyway as you would set a safe tolerance. I.e. 18mph limit instead of 15.5mph to eliminate all possibility of errors. Police aren't some sort of race of retarded monkeys or something they are intelligent rational human beings or at least most of them are who will have no problem sorting out a simple test. There is a huge gap between 15.5mph assisted and the 25-30mph or more of the unrestricted ebike's speed it is almost a doubling of assisted speed. You've only got to put the bike in low gearing which would only achieve perhaps 5mph approx at a normal cadence to find out the maximum assisted speed the bike will do above that at least for hub motor cadence sensing ebikes. For ebikes with torque sensing mid-drive and hub motors it's going to be a bit trickier but its quite easy to tell when assistance stops for the rider.

Lets face it once a few ebikes have been confiscated and its been reported people will start adhering to the law and making sure their bikes comply. At the moment they don't fear any punishment. Even if only one area started doing this the knock on effects could go nationwide. Losing lets say a ebike valued at £1-3k surely will motivate others to comply.

In the future there will be a lot more ebikes on the road and less cars so its going to become more of an issue and need tighter regulation.

[leftpoole]

Good evening John
Just a couple of points I would like to raise.. Please don't think I am being argumentative.

It seems very sad that being a lifelong cyclist reaching a point where you cannot cycle on a ''normal'' bike you wouldn't wish to continue on a bike that would just aid you just minimally as and when. I too have exertion induced asthma ( for many many years now) and I am now able to carry on with my passion for as long as I can. As you say it is your choice to give up cycling..???

I cannot understand your thinking or logic here at all

Quote...The way forward for transport is not in my opinion and knowledge, electric, but Hydrogen. Unquote.
However you then go on to say and I quote your words again
Quote...When the day comes that I cannot pedal far enough to be a cyclist, I will buy a motorcycle. I started my 'adult' life with large motorcycles. Hence the spine damage. Unquote...

You are willing to buy a MOTORCYCLE that uses petrol and can cause severe damage to the body in accidents? Maybe it will use hydrogen or LPG???

I just poodle around the countryside on my very safe ebike ( because I have total control) enjoying what I am doing and the countryside. No noise or pollution.
I wish you well whatever mode of ''safe'' transport you use.

I would make 'proper' use of a 'proper' motorcycle. I like powerful motorcycles even at my age!
Regarding petrol etc, I agree with the sentiment, but I do run a diesel car even though for only an average of 2000 miles per annum (896 this past 12 months).
The 'argument' if that is what it could be called against E-bikes? A cyclist is a cyclist. NOT a powered machine.
A kite on its own is a kite. A balloon on its own is a balloon. A balloon with Gas is powered. Why not fly by a small aeroplane?
The reasoning goes on and on.
I do not like nor want nor ever will a E-bike! Sorry.
I do not agree with electric powered cars either. Hydrogen is the answer and in a few years (I will most likely be gone) Hydrogen will be being served at the present Petrol/Diesel filling Stations.
You wait and see.I told you here. Remember..... LOL

[leftpoole]

It is relatively easy to test for the assisted speed certainly far easier than working out the rated or nominal wattage.

OK, tell me how you'd do it and bear in mind the amount of tech and the regular testing of it the police need to prove speeding by a car.

They need "reasonable suspicion" and since the vehicle can perfectly legitimately travel at any speed it likes then how do you go about that? Gut feeling?
They also can't ride the bike on the road.
Even if they could ride the bike they'd need fairly sophisticated measuring equipment that they could set up at the side of the road and is regularly calibrated.
Sounds expensive to me and fixes a non issue.

In my opinion it is extremely dangerous and is taken far too lightly at the moment by the police. I certainly also feel any bicycle ridden without lights should also be confiscated and also very dangerous, although more dangerous to themselves.

In your opinion...

Care to back it up with facts?
If they were genuinely that much of an issue the police would do something. They're not so they don't.

If I was measuring the speed of a ebike, you have speed cameras, GPS, the bikes own computer speed, you could set out a distance on the ground and time how far the vehicle takes to travel that set distance and calculate speed. The accuracy doesn't have to be amazing anyway as you would set a safe tolerance. I.e. 18mph limit instead of 15.5mph to eliminate all possibility of errors. Police aren't some sort of race of retarded monkeys or something they are intelligent rational human beings or at least most of them are who will have no problem sorting out a simple test. There is a huge gap between 15.5mph assisted and the 25-30mph or more of the unrestricted ebike's speed it is almost a doubling of assisted speed. You've only got to put the bike in low gearing which would only achieve perhaps 5mph approx at a normal cadence to find out the maximum assisted speed the bike will do above that at least for hub motor cadence sensing ebikes. For ebikes with torque sensing mid-drive and hub motors it's going to be a bit trickier but its quite easy to tell when assistance stops for the rider.

Lets face it once a few ebikes have been confiscated and its been reported people will start adhering to the law and making sure their bikes comply. At the moment they don't fear any punishment. Even if only one area started doing this the knock on effects could go nationwide. Losing lets say a ebike valued at £1-3k surely will motivate others to comply.

In the future there will be a lot more ebikes on the road and less cars so its going to become more of an issue and need tighter regulation.

The thing that my neighbour has does have a twist grip throttle. If he simply turns as if to change gear grip shift style, the front wheel is up in the air and he is off the back! He tells me that he has to peddle up to speed before he dares using the throttle! Madness and dangerous. Would you or someone like to report him? I dare not because he lives just a few properties away.

[kwackers]

If I was measuring the speed of a ebike, you have speed cameras, GPS, the bikes own computer speed, you could set out a distance on the ground and time how far the vehicle takes to travel that set distance and calculate speed. The accuracy doesn't have to be amazing anyway as you would set a safe tolerance. I.e. 18mph limit instead of 15.5mph to eliminate all possibility of errors. Police aren't some sort of race of retarded monkeys or something they are intelligent rational human beings or at least most of them are who will have no problem sorting out a simple test. There is a huge gap between 15.5mph assisted and the 25-30mph or more of the unrestricted ebike's speed it is almost a doubling of assisted speed. You've only got to put the bike in low gearing which would only achieve perhaps 5mph approx at a normal cadence to find out the maximum assisted speed the bike will do above that at least for hub motor cadence sensing ebikes. For ebikes with torque sensing mid-drive and hub motors it's going to be a bit trickier but its quite easy to tell when assistance stops for the rider.

Lets face it once a few ebikes have been confiscated and its been reported people will start adhering to the law and making sure their bikes comply. At the moment they don't fear any punishment. Even if only one area started doing this the knock on effects could go nationwide. Losing lets say a ebike valued at £1-3k surely will motivate others to comply.

In the future there will be a lot more ebikes on the road and less cars so its going to become more of an issue and need tighter regulation.

You're making lots of assumptions about what the police can and can't do (or even want to do).
You talk about speed cameras, GPS, bikes computer speed, distance marking - they all have the same problem.
The speed is irrelevant because it proves absolutely nothing about the legality of the bike.
(I'm assuming you can't be possibly suggesting the police pull up every bicycle travelling at over 15mph to check?).

So lets say they see a bicycle travelling at 20mph and decide for no reason at all that it *might* be derestricted.
What now?
They're not going to ride it and even if they did and know how to use the controller on it the only means they have of proving the legality is to use an officially recognised method of measuring the speed.
All the "you could just hold the wheel up" is patent nonsense and not how stuff like this works.

There's plenty of tech out there that would fix the problem if plod did start pulling bikes over. From 'tricking' the speed sensors, to bluetooth locking the controller. Given the number of illegal ebikes sold you wouldn't have to wait long to see such tech widely available.
Perhaps just a hidden switch on the bar you have to hold in to defeat the limits...

The reality is it's far too much hassle, there's no established procedure and its a none problem.
Perhaps you should start a petition and see how many people actually give a toss.

[hemo]

Not speed related but recently on Pedelecs a guy had his e cargo bike confiscated by plod because they tried to test the power and said the battery output more then 250w, so he was told it will be crushed. Another very knowledgeable forum user wrote him a letter fully explaining that they had incorrectly tested the bike and it isn't the battery that is tested but the motor, as it is practically impossible to test the motor the output is what the manufacturer stamps it as. The guy got his e-cargo bike back.