Who needs more than 250W?

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
hemo
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by hemo »

Problem with s-pedelecs and over powered e bikes is the lack of knowledge and testing stations who actually know about the law and e bikes and then as Stood has mentioned getting one insured or finding someone to sensibly give a quote, one might as well be on Mars.
Merlin
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by Merlin »

Thanks Jonathan. I didn't know.

I personally doubt I'd be allowed to ride one sadly as I lost my driving licence due to suffering seizures. The ironic issue is that I only suffered seizures when riding a bicycle...hence the e bike.

So, it's perfectly legal for me to ride along (personally putting out say 200w) doing 18mph, to fall in front of cars then suffer convulsions in the middle of a main road but illegal for me to (safely) ride an ebike at the same speed.

OK. I'm a rare case (although exercise is a known stressor for epilepsy) but I still can't see the logic - given that just 5mph (now we have disc brakes) would encourage a number of people to become healthier, reduce carbon emissions and allow less road congestion in urban areas.
stodd
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by stodd »

Merlin wrote: 5 Jul 2021, 8:52pm but I still can't see the logic - given that just 5mph (now we have disc brakes) would encourage a number of people to become healthier, reduce carbon emissions and allow less road congestion in urban areas.
The 15mph is designed to fit many purposes. For example, it allows a standard ebike it to be classed as a bicycle and used on bridleways, shared cycle/foot paths etc. 15mph is already too fast there, 20mph considerably worse. If everyone always rode sensibly then 20mph on road for those that can handle it sensibly might be completely appropriate. Sadly, that 'if' is a very big 'if'.

The law is designed to take into account these different circumstances as best it can. Also sadly, whatever the law many people who don't ride sensibly won't ride legally either.
peterb
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by peterb »

stodd wrote: 5 Jul 2021, 9:26pm
Merlin wrote: 5 Jul 2021, 8:52pm but I still can't see the logic - given that just 5mph (now we have disc brakes) would encourage a number of people to become healthier, reduce carbon emissions and allow less road congestion in urban areas.
The 15mph is designed to fit many purposes. For example, it allows a standard ebike it to be classed as a bicycle and used on bridleways, shared cycle/foot paths etc. 15mph is already too fast there, 20mph considerably worse. If everyone always rode sensibly then 20mph on road for those that can handle it sensibly might be completely appropriate. Sadly, that 'if' is a very big 'if'.

The law is designed to take into account these different circumstances as best it can. Also sadly, whatever the law many people who don't ride sensibly won't ride legally either.
Round and round we go ..... a 15mph cut off doesn't stop irresponsible riding. You can ride at 30mph on a shared path or bridleway on a legal ebike or an unassisted bike under your own power, if you are stupid enough to do it. You do not have to ride under power at the cut off speed all the time. The 15.5mph maximum assisted speed is not appropriate for the new genre of lightweight e-road bikes.
Merlin
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by Merlin »

stodd wrote: 5 Jul 2021, 9:26pm
The 15mph is designed to fit many purposes. For example, it allows a standard ebike it to be classed as a bicycle and used on bridleways, shared cycle/foot paths etc. 15mph is already too fast there, 20mph considerably worse. If everyone always rode sensibly then 20mph on road for those that can handle it sensibly might be completely appropriate. Sadly, that 'if' is a very big 'if'.

The law is designed to take into account these different circumstances as best it can. Also sadly, whatever the law many people who don't ride sensibly won't ride legally either.
I DO get that and I think anyone riding an S Pedelec should require a proficiency licence. Yet as Peter says, it is still easy to exceed the 15mph and, for users like me, that could prove far more dangerous, without people knowing, simply because of power limiting. By all means use more reasonable regulations to control speed. I, for one, would not be against banning S Pedelecs from Bridleways. Mobility Scooters are allowed to travel at the same speeds as other "road" users on Bridleways and footpaths - 4mph.

I wouldn't ban S-Pedelecs completely. I would make it law to register them and to have visible evidence when riding. Many people (either invalided or elderly) DO however need an alternative form of transport for relatively local travel or food shopping. The roads are full of aged drivers, some of whom sadly provide a very real threat to motorists and pedestrians. Legally.

I would however make them legal, when properly registered, for use on public roads excluding dual carriageways and motorways. It reduces traffic, whilst potentially increasing health and it reduces carbon emissions - all at the same time. Imagine getting the week's shopping from the local supermarket.
stodd
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by stodd »

Merlin wrote: 9 Jul 2021, 2:06pm I DO get that and I think anyone riding an S Pedelec should require a proficiency licence. Yet as Peter says, it is still easy to exceed the 15mph and, for users like me, that could prove far more dangerous, without people knowing, simply because of power limiting. By all means use more reasonable regulations to control speed. I, for one, would not be against banning S Pedelecs from Bridleways. Mobility Scooters are allowed to travel at the same speeds as other "road" users on Bridleways and footpaths - 4mph.

I wouldn't ban S-Pedelecs completely. I would make it law to register them and to have visible evidence when riding. Many people (either invalided or elderly) DO however need an alternative form of transport for relatively local travel or food shopping. The roads are full of aged drivers, some of whom sadly provide a very real threat to motorists and pedestrians. Legally.

I would however make them legal, when properly registered, for use on public roads excluding dual carriageways and motorways. It reduces traffic, whilst potentially increasing health and it reduces carbon emissions - all at the same time. Imagine getting the week's shopping from the local supermarket.
I think what you are suggesting is very close to the way the law is now.

S-Pedlecs are not banned completely, they count as mopeds. They are banned on bridleways and motorways (for opposite reasons); and they need to be registered (and insured).

I agree about the invalided and elderly. But I don't think the 15mph limit is an issue for their local use. I'm elderly-ish and do almost all shopping by ebike (and much of the rest by non-e bike), but have no need to be assisted to ride over 15mph, nor of being assisted beyond what a standard nominal 250 motor can give. Those dangerous motorists would be even more dangerous on a 20mps bicycle.

The people who might benefit from higher speeds are people with fairly long commutes, and people who want to ride fast (? to keep up with club ride ?) but need assistance to maintain those speeds on the flat. The S-pedelec rules should not be too much of an issue for them, except maybe the difficultly of getting appropriate insurance.
Merlin
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by Merlin »

Agree wholeheartedly.

Sadly for me, the 15mph assistance limit represents too much of a health hazard for me to use the thing, so it was unfortunately a waste of money my speccing one up.

I should perhaps have bought something like a Stromer but I'm just a mad ex roadie who did crazy miles and would average more than the top speed of these things over 150km rides. It's difficult to change the habits of a lifetime to protect my health and I, for the life of me, cannot see how it protects the life of others.

Cue huge amounts of boring scientific reasoning behind that... :D
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Merlin wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 11:34pm Agree wholeheartedly.

Sadly for me, the 15mph assistance limit represents too much of a health hazard for me to use the thing, so it was unfortunately a waste of money my speccing one up.

I should perhaps have bought something like a Stromer but I'm just a mad ex roadie who did crazy miles and would average more than the top speed of these things over 150km rides. It's difficult to change the habits of a lifetime to protect my health and I, for the life of me, cannot see how it protects the life of others.

Cue huge amounts of boring scientific reasoning behind that... :D
The limit isn't really relevant on the flat or downhill for anyone with reasonable power and strength - the power limit is relevant going up hill, but it significantly increases minimum speed there, and therefore increases average speed, to well over 15mph potentially.

But think about the comparison you're making. The assistance limit is sufficient to make it very easy to make moderate journeys, and to encourage use of a little exercise.
It's explicitly not a motorbike, and shouldn't be confused with one. If you want a moped then get a moped.

I used e-assist for several years of commuting, and never had any issue with the limit being too low.

There is a bit of me that says that if we are genuinely limited to 250W then do we need a speed limiter at all - but it makes a very clear special category.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Oldjohnw
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by Oldjohnw »

I averaged, as always, on my 32mile today 11.2mph with my legal power assisted retro fit. I was overtaken by two bikes, neither of which were other than human powered. I guess about half of my ride was over 15mph and therefore entirely up to me. Half of it was uphill and without power I would have been unable to make it.

If you want to exceed 15mph you can. Ifphysically unable to then surely 15mph assisted is better than it was. We cannot both mourn our inability to do something then complain that the help we get is inadequate.
John
peterb
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by peterb »

Oldjohnw wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 3:58pm
If you want to exceed 15mph you can. If physically unable to then surely 15mph assisted is better than it was. We cannot both mourn our inability to do something then complain that the help we get is inadequate.
I do exceed 15mph when I can but an 18 mph assisted speed cut off would be more helpful (for me). Stories of a 15mph limit being fine for the commute or whatever are irrelevant. I don't see why I cannot have feelings of regret for the loss of ability to ride a bike in the way I could just a few years ago, with the group of people I rode with, or complain that the help to get near that level of ability is inadequate? Why not? Mustn't grumble? Make the best of it? Be grateful for what your given?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

So you can't keep up with what most groups would consider a fast ride...

Have you considered setting your expectations sensibly?
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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mjr
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by mjr »

peterb wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 5:03pm I don't see why I cannot have feelings of regret for the loss of ability to ride a bike in the way I could just a few years ago, with the group of people I rode with, or complain that the help to get near that level of ability is inadequate? Why not? Mustn't grumble? Make the best of it? Be grateful for what your given?
You can have feelings of regret for it, but why does that mean the legal limits should be raised? Would the improved mental health of people in your situation outweigh the increased potential damage to riders and anyone hit?
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Oldjohnw
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by Oldjohnw »

Here are lots of things I can’t do that I could a few years ago. I am daily thankful that I can do what I do. Being grateful for what I have seems a reasonable feeling. An ebike has enabled me to keep going beyond what would have otherwise been possible. I can’t climb mountains which is disappointing and there is not an electronic gadget available to help. But I look for different things now and they are no less rewarding.

The general name for this condition is ‘getting older’. If you are lucky, it happens to you.
John
peterb
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by peterb »

mjr wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 5:27pm
You can have feelings of regret for it, but why does that mean the legal limits should be raised? Would the improved mental health of people in your situation outweigh the increased potential damage to riders and anyone hit?
Evidence? The legal assisted limit for my bike (exactly the same 250w model) in USA and Canada is 20mph, has this caused damage and death? 15.5mph is a purely arbitrary figure.
peterb
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Re: Who needs more than 250W?

Post by peterb »

Oldjohnw wrote: 18 Jul 2021, 6:12pm Here are lots of things I can’t do that I could a few years ago. I am daily thankful that I can do what I do. Being grateful for what I have seems a reasonable feeling. An ebike has enabled me to keep going beyond what would have otherwise been possible. I can’t climb mountains which is disappointing and there is not an electronic gadget available to help. But I look for different things now and they are no less rewarding.

The general name for this condition is ‘getting older’. If you are lucky, it happens to you.
I agree. I can't climb mountains any more, I can't even walk far without great pain. There are many with my problem who can't walk as far as me, there are many who have had to have limbs amputated. I'm very lucky. I can't ride the bikes listed below more than a very few miles. But there is an electronic gadget that allows me to continue enjoying cycling. Just 3mph added to the assistance level, available to me if required - what's the problem?
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