Hub Geared E-Bike

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
Jupestar
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Joined: 29 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Jupestar »

A friend at work is looking for an e-bike mainly for flat commuting but ideally could do some decent paths for the weekend stuff as well. Rigid or hard tail.

I suggested looking for something with a IGH, maybe a chain cover, and Hydraulic disc brakes. Biggish clearance for tires/guards. with or without front suspension. he's fairly big so steel might be the way to go, but whatever. I was thinking something like the, Cube Hyde Pro, with some powered help..

But.. IGH and E-bike are surprisingly hard to find, a combination i thought would be a natural fit. Not worried about stock levels as no hurry. maybe i'm looking in the wrong place.

Any suggestions?
stodd
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Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by stodd »

Raleigh Motus has hub gear option, also half chain guard. There is (or at least was) also a slightly higher spec version (?Captus?). Choice of crossbar or low step.

We have an older low step with hub gear which came with hydraulic rim brakes which I find a pain to adjust and to replace pads. The new ones have disk brakes even on the hub geared models. We ride ours on road and on bridleways etc
Jupestar
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Joined: 29 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Jupestar »

Yes i saw that one, although the cross bar one is not on their website. I looks its a bit on the town bike side end, rather than being able to take on light trails.

At the moment its the best hub gear option i can find. surprised there is not a few more.
stodd
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Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by stodd »

I've never had problems on light trails as long as its dry, but it is certainly aimed as a town bike. We've fitted Marathon Plus, which are always poor on muddy surfaces. Different people have different ideas of 'light' trails.

There are several Riese & Müller models with various hub gears, and several with Gates belt drive, but they come at a premium price.

https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/search/hub_gear/ brings up a few at budget prices (including some that don't have hub gears)
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squeaker
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Location: Sussex

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by squeaker »

Jupestar wrote: 9 Jul 2021, 8:43amBut.. IGH and E-bike are surprisingly hard to find, a combination i thought would be a natural fit. Not worried about stock levels as no hurry. maybe i'm looking in the wrong place.
Given the relative frailty of some hub gears (SA 3sp and Rohloff being the obvious exceptions) when handling ordinary mortals' power outputs, and probably more importantly, gear shift techniques, I'm not surprised at all given the torque offered by mid-drive systems! However, interlocked gear shifting must be relatively easy to engineer, although getting the subjective user experience right might take longer.
"42"
Jupestar
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Joined: 29 Feb 2020, 3:03pm

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Jupestar »

stodd wrote: 9 Jul 2021, 9:45am I've never had problems on light trails as long as its dry, but it is certainly aimed as a town bike. We've fitted Marathon Plus, which are always poor on muddy surfaces. Different people have different ideas of 'light' trails.

There are several Riese & Müller models with various hub gears, and several with Gates belt drive, but they come at a premium price.

https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/search/hub_gear/ brings up a few at budget prices (including some that don't have hub gears)
I think of light trails as flatish single track and moderate downhill. Something you would not hestiate to take a rigid MTB or even a MTB end of a hybrid down..

Couple of nice looking options on the Riese & Muller, but definately premium! budget was a little more than half i think £2.5k ish..
Jupestar
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Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Jupestar »

squeaker wrote: 9 Jul 2021, 9:56am Given the relative frailty of some hub gears (SA 3sp and Rohloff being the obvious exceptions) when handling ordinary mortals' power outputs, and probably more importantly, gear shift techniques, I'm not surprised at all given the torque offered by mid-drive systems! However, interlocked gear shifting must be relatively easy to engineer, although getting the subjective user experience right might take longer.

I've never really looked at it before, but i would have though the Alfine/Nexus IGH's would have made there way accross by now, not an engineer, so maybe they need too much adjustment to take the force. TBH i just assumed that is the type of system e-bikes used. surprised they use regular cassette/RD.
Colin_P
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Joined: 19 Aug 2013, 2:21am

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Colin_P »

If you already have a hub geared bike which is perfectly useable, then consider converting it for a fraction of the price.

The Bafang mid-drive kit I fitted allows the fitment of a gear sensor that cuts power when it detects the slightest gear cable movement.

I never got round to fitting the gear sensor and found that a bit of mechanical sympathy is more than adequate.
Bonzo Banana
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Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Bonzo Banana »

I know many are against a hub motor on the front wheel but if you are a relatively heavy rider and the hub isn't super powerful a front hub motor does not have grip issues. By fitting a geared hub motor or direct drive hub motor to the front you take a huge amount of force away from the rear wheel and drivetrain. The chain and drivetrain will last significantly longer something like 3x because when you go up hills you now have the front wheel assisting so the force going through the chain and rear wheel is reduced. Something like a Nexus 8 which would likely be destroyed quickly with a mid-drive motor will actually last significantly longer than normal with a front wheel hub motor.

One of the main disadvantages of the front hub motor will be the significantly heavier steering especially with a larger direct drive motor. However direct drive motor's are more simple and strong so ideal for a very heavy rider.

Of course a front hub motor means you are free to choose what ever hub gears you want at the rear and even a 3 speed hub is enough when you have a motor at the front assisting. I would say something like a SA or Nexus 3 speed hub is ideal to be honest. A combination of a 3 speed hub and front direct drive hub motor gets you a strong ebike for a pretty low price. You also have 2 wheel drive. Something like a Swytch kit is also relatively easy to fit and also return the bike to a normal bike just by replacing the front hub motor wheel with a normal wheel so you can switch easily between normal bike and ebike if you wanted that. It gives extra versatility. You also even out tyre wear.

Heavy riders often have far more punctures on the rear so having the hub motor on the front can also save a lot of hassles of fixing punctures and having to remove the hub motor wheel at the rear.

Often front hub motors have the same sealed bearings as rear wheel hub motors so with 60-70 percent of the riders weight over the rear wheel bearings should in theory last longer with the front hub motor. Another win for the front hub motor.

Mid-drive motors and rear hub motors can shorten the life of spokes as more force is now going through the rear wheel spokes. It's typically worse for a mid-drive motor as the rear wheel has longer spokes. However with a front hub motor again rear spokes should last longer.

You will have longer spokes on the rear wheel compared to a rear motor hub so more flex and comfort.

2 wheel drive is quite a nice feature on loose surfaces, gravel etc. Both wheels are pushing you forward its not reliant on one wheel and for heavy riders who create decent downward force on both wheels this can give a bit improvement in grip. Just like a 4 wheel drive car.

Hub motors can be significantly more reliable than mid-drive motors as they are so simple in engineering terms. The direct drive hub motor has no moving parts except the bearings of the axle and the geared hub motor has one assembly of 3 planetary gears and a clutch plate. Incredibly simple compared to the huge number of cogs and sometimes belts in a mid-drive motor.

Lastly having a front hub motor means its more simple as there is no freewheel or cassette attached to it so no freehub to go wrong or freewheel to remove when servicing.


There are a lot of positives to having a front hub motor that are often overlooked.
Oldjohnw
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Location: South Warwickshire

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Oldjohnw »

I have front hub drive. Only twice had a noticeable loss of traction. Both times were on a steep gravel surface when fully loaded with rear panniers (the battery is also on the rear rack).

Four years and many thousands of mile without problems.
John
hemo
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Location: West Sussex

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by hemo »

I had an Alfine 8 on a mtb with a front hub motor, the Alfine is under no motor strain. I even ran mine on a twin chain wheel set up.
On pedelecs a few have run a hub gears with a BBS01/02 and say they have no issues, however once posted there is little or no later feed back.
stodd
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Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by stodd »

Oldjohnw wrote: 10 Jul 2021, 8:07am I have front hub drive. Only twice had a noticeable loss of traction. Both times were on a steep gravel surface when fully loaded with rear panniers (the battery is also on the rear rack).
We have a front hub on the tandem. No slippage, partly because of the relatively weak motor (XF07), and partly because the different weight distribution on a tandem puts a larger proportion on the front.

One benefit is you effectively have two wheel drive, motor at the front, rider(s) at the back. There have been several occasions on wet grassy slight uphill where the back has lost traction and the front motor pulled us forward fine.

It isn't hub geared, but that only changes the front hub arguments because hub geared rear hub drive combination is not available. I don't know if that would be a big engineering challenge, or whether the market seems small enough to deter manufacturers from the development.

p.s. The cheaper hub geared ebikes at https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/search/hub_gear/ (referenced above) all have front hub drive.
borisface
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Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 3:48pm

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by borisface »

Merlin cycles had some corratec ebikes with bosch motors and IGH last year for some decent prices sub £2k IRC but they've sold them all. Corratec do a range of ebikes with hub gears. They looked quite sensible with guards, racks and hydraulic disk or rim brakes and a big battery.

In fact these guys appear to have a 55cm one in stock! https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/ ... matt-black

You probably won't find a steel ebike unless you do your own conversion but alu will be fine.
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6.5_lives_left
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Joined: 9 Oct 2020, 9:27pm

Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by 6.5_lives_left »

I have in my fleet of bikes a 'Trek District 1+'. It is a hub geared commuter bike with a Bosch mid drive motor. The hub gear is a Nexus 7 (7 gears). It has hydraulic disk brakes. The battery is mounted on the rear pannier rack. It also comes with a full chain case which does a good job of keeping the chain clean. It has mudguards of course. The lights are powered from the battery for the motor.

The pedals were poor, I have replaced them with something better. I also added flaps to the front and rear mudguards to keep spray from the wheels down. There are no bosses for fitting water bottles.

It looks a bit agricultural and it is quite heavy (more so when I load it up with a pannier of tools, spare tubes, pump etc). It was also absurdly expensive.

It is very low maintenance which I attribute to the chain case, The exception is rear wheel punctures which are a real bind - chain case + nexus cassette joint - which require tools + head torch if you are commuting after dark in a rural area.

Trek do other bikes in the District series, but not all of them have hub gears and a chain case, which is what I would go for despite the pain of rear wheel punctures.

Is it worth the expense? I used it for a 36 mile round trip commute which I struggled to do with a unassisted bike. I have 5000+ mile clocked up on it which I would otherwise have done by ICE car. In money terms I suspect I would have to do many more miles on the bike before I made a saving versus the motor car fuel costs to cover the bike purchase (I have already forked out for the car). The purchase cost of the car was about 4 times the cost of the bicycle. I am still pleased I bought the bike.

To answer the OP
Would it be good for a flat commute? Yes, but I used it on a hilly commute which is where electric bikes really excel.
Would it be good for weekend rough stuff on good paths? It could do it and I have done so (eg ridgeway) but only in summer and I can't be bothered with the cleaning required afterwards if you are unwise about your choice of path.
Jupestar
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Re: Hub Geared E-Bike

Post by Jupestar »

Thanks for all the ideas - the bikes suggested are a bit too far on the town side. I honestly thought it would be easier to get something like a Cube Hyde with pedal assist.

In the end they went for a 9 speed MTB with RD.

I like the idea of a retro fit to front wheel drive , that’s something that would suit my bikes or my wife’s bike… I will look into that.
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