E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Electrically assisted bikes, trikes, etc. that are legal in the UK
TonyN
Posts: 8
Joined: 18 May 2020, 11:15am

E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by TonyN »

POWER SETTING CHANGES ON EBIKES
Re: crank vs hub power
Post by TonyN » 30 Sep 2021, 5:16pm

I am an unapologetic user of front hub motors and conversion kits for one's own familiar bike. One main point seemingly ignored by most commentators is the cost comparison, a kit using a bottom bracket motor is more expensive and generally needs more expensive maintenance beyond that of a DIY home mechanic. Other points are :-
1. Most batteries fit onto the downtube and with a hub motor there is little stability difference than with a slightly lower bottom bracket motor.
2. A front hub motor distributes weight along the bike, has two tyres driving the bike and chain wear is less than on the original bike.
3. Commercial big name Ebikes start in price at about £2000, at this level weigh over 22kg and require expert expensive maintenance.
4. My ex cyclo-cross bike conversion cost £450 for kit and battery, weighs 16.5 kg and has a 70 mile range on a charge. The bottle battery as the name indicates looks like a large water bottle and the aesthetics are, I think, better than a big fat downtube.
5. Even if the local bike shop has to fit your kit any maintenace replacements are cheaply available and easy to fit by them or yourself.
6. I read a contribution a few weeks ago by a keen cyclist, used to travelling at 18 mph with his club bunch, very dissatisfied because his commercial Ebike cut out at 15mph with no resetting method available. So he was pushing a heavier bike by his own efforts to keep up with his mates. I have installed a number of kits over the last few years and every kit was capable of setting the cut-off speed between 10 to 25mph along with the supply of a hand throttle. Note that an Ebike can only be legally used on public roads with the cut-off speed set at a max of 15mph and without a throttle fitted.
7. Power settings on Ebikes have generally been by push button with a range of up to 5 settings. My kits provided roughly 50 watts on the lowest, 100 watts next, 200 watts next and so on. This power is constantly provided at these settings irrespective of rider effort.
Just to put this into context I seem to remember that Bradley Wiggins averaged 440 watts when he broke the hour record.
On my latest kit automation has taken over and the power setting now seems to represent a maximum. In normal riding the power provided is sufficient for progress but it automatically increases dramatically if pedal effort for a slope is encountered. This means two things, no power is wasted when it is not needed, thus more range for a charge. And changing gears to cope with a hill now does not need a combined juggle between gears and power buttons, the power is increased by the controller. In addition to this the first turn of the pedals gives an automatic powered surge, very handy for setting off and crossing roads.
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1305
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by bikes4two »

TongSheng TSDZ2 - 250w (nominal) 36V - a mid-drive DIY kit
  • I have just (as in last few days) fitted the above to my now flat handlebar Dawes Super Galaxy
  • I went for the minimalist option - so a small handlebar display (VLCD6), no ebrakes, no throttle and a 10Ahr bottle battery
  • The cost from PSWPower from their German warehouse was £352 and no Customs charges - the battery and motor arrived separately but both items took less than 10 days to get to me.
  • Installation took around 3.5 hours between cups of tea, attending to the front door bell and other distractions such as re-routing the RD cable away from the cable guide underneath the BB shell and getting off a cross-threaded chainring set - pah!
  • Just three cables connected to the motor - 1x speed sensor on rear chainstay, 1x display connection to handlebars and 1x connection to adjacent bottle battery. I probably spent as much time 'cable tidying' as anything else, but the whole installation process was really very straight forward - if you can change a bottom bracket, you can install one of these kits
I went for the TSDZ2 as it is a Torque Sensing system and highly configurable through software (but that can get complicated for the non-technical), but TBH the basic display and 'out of the box' ride characteristics of the motor are pretty damned good as it is.

I've been reading about this motor quite extensively over the past 18 months. You will read 'around the web' of people having various issues with these motors, but if you look more deeply into a lot of the stories, people are really pushing these motors beyond their original design limits and much more than what I am likely to do in my now leisurely cycling style.

Further, even if problems were to develop, the motor is easy to strip down and parts are readily available.

And let's be frank, the 'web' attracts more reports of 'my bike/motor/what ever is broken can you help me fix it' type of postings rather than the 'I've had a great day on my excellent bike' type.

PS - The wife was impressed with the installation too so I've just ordered a second kit for one of her bikes - that will be two kits at a cost of a little over what I've just sold her Pendleton eSomerby for (which was an OK bike but too big for her).
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
groberts
Posts: 588
Joined: 27 Apr 2009, 4:15pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by groberts »

TonyN wrote: 30 Sep 2021, 5:58pm POWER SETTING CHANGES ON EBIKES
Re: crank vs hub power
Post by TonyN » 30 Sep 2021, 5:16pm

I am an unapologetic user of front hub motors and conversion kits for one's own familiar bike. One main point seemingly ignored by most commentators is the cost comparison, a kit using a bottom bracket motor is more expensive and generally needs more expensive maintenance beyond that of a DIY home mechanic. Other points are :-
1. Most batteries fit onto the downtube and with a hub motor there is little stability difference than with a slightly lower bottom bracket motor.
2. A front hub motor distributes weight along the bike, has two tyres driving the bike and chain wear is less than on the original bike.
3. Commercial big name Ebikes start in price at about £2000, at this level weigh over 22kg and require expert expensive maintenance.
4. My ex cyclo-cross bike conversion cost £450 for kit and battery, weighs 16.5 kg and has a 70 mile range on a charge. The bottle battery as the name indicates looks like a large water bottle and the aesthetics are, I think, better than a big fat downtube.
5. Even if the local bike shop has to fit your kit any maintenace replacements are cheaply available and easy to fit by them or yourself.
6. I read a contribution a few weeks ago by a keen cyclist, used to travelling at 18 mph with his club bunch, very dissatisfied because his commercial Ebike cut out at 15mph with no resetting method available. So he was pushing a heavier bike by his own efforts to keep up with his mates. I have installed a number of kits over the last few years and every kit was capable of setting the cut-off speed between 10 to 25mph along with the supply of a hand throttle. Note that an Ebike can only be legally used on public roads with the cut-off speed set at a max of 15mph and without a throttle fitted.
7. Power settings on Ebikes have generally been by push button with a range of up to 5 settings. My kits provided roughly 50 watts on the lowest, 100 watts next, 200 watts next and so on. This power is constantly provided at these settings irrespective of rider effort.
Just to put this into context I seem to remember that Bradley Wiggins averaged 440 watts when he broke the hour record.
On my latest kit automation has taken over and the power setting now seems to represent a maximum. In normal riding the power provided is sufficient for progress but it automatically increases dramatically if pedal effort for a slope is encountered. This means two things, no power is wasted when it is not needed, thus more range for a charge. And changing gears to cope with a hill now does not need a combined juggle between gears and power buttons, the power is increased by the controller. In addition to this the first turn of the pedals gives an automatic powered surge, very handy for setting off and crossing roads.
Tony, I would interested to know what kit you used & it's source - motor, wheel/tyre size, battery etc? I'm interested in converting a Dawes Audax using a front hub motor + bottle battery but am concerned if my 700x28 tryes are robust enough + whether I can get sufficient range? I already have a very successful Trek 830 front hub conversion with 26x1.5 tyres and a 17Ah battery, which does the job very well but not sure the Dawes would. Any thoughts + info?

Graham
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1305
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by bikes4two »

Hi @TonyN,
I thought I'd breath fresh life into your post to invoke more debate on the subject - it's always good to talk through these things is it not?
I am an unapologetic user of front hub motors and conversion kits for one's own familiar bike. One main point seemingly ignored by most commentators is the cost comparison, a kit using a bottom bracket motor is more expensive and generally needs more expensive maintenance beyond that of a DIY home mechanic.
I'm with you all the way on converting a 'familiar bike' - like many others, it took me a good number of years and bikes to find a machine that I really liked and hence my recent conversion on my Dawes Galaxy which is my favourite of the 5 bikes I have.

Cost comparison:
> I used a mid drive kit (aka bottom bracket kit), the TongSheng TSDZ2 plus a modest sized 10Ahr bottle battery for £350 - yes I bought outside of the UK but I only waited a week for delivery (and no customs charges from the seller's German warehouse).
> Is that not comparible with front hub kits?

Maintenance:
> Although I'm a recent adopter of the TSDZ2, I have been following the experiences of others for something like 2 years (and on youtube of course).
> To be fair, I'm pretty handy with tools and have never needed the services of a bike mechanic but there is nothing about the TSDZ2 and it's constituent parts that would prove difficult to get to for someone say, who can change their own botom bracket.
> And is it more expensive to maintain? More expensive than what I wonder? On an unpowered bike I would change a chain and bottom bracket at something like 1500 mile intervals so £35-£40 maybe? On the TSDZ2 what might I need to change there for a similar mileage - the infamous 'Blue Gear' maybe at a similar cost and no more difficult than a bottom bracket?
> And on the topic of chain wear (and Blue Gear wear) - there are many who say chain and sprocket wear is increased with mid drive motors - well, I guess that is the case if you're going to be pumping many amps/watts through the motor as many seem to do (and I'm talking of the 250W+ brigade here), but for the moderate 250W user, is that really the case? Personally I monitor my chain wear with a simple chain wear guage and change it when indicated - I wonder how many of the complainants of excessive chain wear are so dilligent?
> Similarly for the Blue Gear wear - for the average 250W user, how much of an issue is this? I don't know for myself as yet, but I will feed back when I do know.

Moving on.......
I'm with you all the way on the other points you raise but I was curious to see you say:
And changing gears to cope with a hill now does not need a combined juggle between gears and power buttons, the power is increased by the controller.
So you get to a hill and rather than change down gear to ascend it (which is what you'd likely do on an unpowered bike), you'll 'up the amps' to maintain the same or similar speed going up it! Fair enough - the joys of the ebike. Pesonally I do change down gear and generally keep the motor power output the same as on the flat which is probably why I can get 50 miles out of a 10Ahr battery.

However, if ebike riders like to power up the hills using the motor, then I can see that chainwear on a mid drive system will increase (but by how much - 10%, 50%, 100%?), something not experiencd with a hub motor.

Finally - the reasons I chose the TSDZ2 mid drive over a front (or rear) hub motor:

The TSDZ2:
> uses a torque sensing power delivery method (which the Bafang mid drive doesn't) and this suited my cycling needs. I accept though that hub motors fitted with Torque Simulation controllers such as those from Kunteng (aka KT), can give a similar ride experience.(and I've had one of those on my wife's previous ebike and very good it was too)
> an external PAS (Pedal Assist Sensor) is not needed so one less cable and item to go wrong
> similarly, no brake sensors are needed if using the 'out of the box' firmware settings on the system
> my bike wheels didn't have to be changed for something else and I can keep the axle QR skewers, making maintenance/puncture repairs simpler.
> Finally, the firmware in the motor's controller (TSDZ2 and Bafang) can be adjusted to suit your individual needs. I'm not talking about increasing power output beyound the legal limit, which can be done, but other ride characteristics such as the power given at different assist levels, the start-up acceleration and so on (too many to list here).

Anyway, some talking points here then?
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Slowtwitch
Posts: 744
Joined: 25 Oct 2021, 11:35pm

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by Slowtwitch »

bikes4two wrote: 8 Oct 2021, 3:42am TongSheng TSDZ2 - 250w (nominal) 36V - a mid-drive DIY kit
[

And let's be frank, the 'web' attracts more reports of 'my bike/motor/what ever is broken can you help me fix it' type of postings rather than the 'I've had a great day on my excellent bike' type.

PS - The wife was impressed with the installation too so I've just ordered a second kit for one of her bikes - that will be two kits at a cost of a little over what I've just sold her Pendleton eSomerby for (which was an OK bike but too big for her).
Is that £352 for everything? Also can you give an indication of the weight of the bike before and after the conversion?
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1305
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by bikes4two »

Hi slowtwitch yes, £352 for what I bought. I did go for the motor kit with just the simple VLCD6 display, no throttle and no ebrakes, and a 10Ah bottle battery.

Ebrakes are not needed with standard firmware (as in 'as supplied' rather than the Open Source Firmware available for those who want to tweak things) - if you stop peddling the motor stops within 1-1.5secs (you can observe this by looking down at your chain wheel).

From memory the motor was 3.4kg and the battery 3.0kg.

A bigger battery adds to the cost (and weight) of course.

I use the power assist mainly on ECO (that's assist level 1, the lowest setting) and in gently undulating territory I get 40-45 miles, less so in the hillier places on the Downs, maybe 35-40 miles.

I do like to put some effort in though, but not a lot due to health restrictions.

My bike pre conversion was around 14kg and I'm 95kg.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Slowtwitch
Posts: 744
Joined: 25 Oct 2021, 11:35pm

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by Slowtwitch »

That's great info - I'm looking to convert a lovely Cannondale Caad 10 donated by my brother in law who has decided to pack up cycling for the motorbike game.

As it, it weighs in about 7.2kg. So I'm hoping with the conversion to go sub 15kg with the entire build. I've priced similar fast /road ebikes and there's not much change out of £3k for a decent bike. This isn't my first foray into ebikes but only my 2nd conversion.
stodd
Posts: 706
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by stodd »

bikes4two wrote: 9 Nov 2021, 7:54am Ebrakes are not needed with standard firmware (as in 'as supplied' rather than the Open Source Firmware available for those who want to tweak things) - if you stop peddling the motor stops within 1-1.5secs (you can observe this by looking down at your chain wheel).
1 to 1.5 seconds is a long time if you are doing something like negotiating an awkward obstruction; especially if the motor decides to start during the manoeuvre because of a small turn of the pedals (or extra bit of applied torque). And especially on a tandem.

We've got a very different kit with probably a much less sophisticated control (XF07/Lishui) and I certainly wouldn't want to got without the brake cutoff on that. I've not tried the TSDZ, but I'd also want them on anything where there was any risk of more then 1/2 second or so run-on.
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by rjb »

:) I'm leaning to go down the Tongsheng mid drive route for my tandem fitting the motor in the stokers bottom bracket. I still have a concern as to whether it will fit with the drain pipe being there. Couple of pics here. I may have to see one in the flesh to be sure. BTW What gearing are you using with a single chain wheel ?
IMG_20211109_161915.jpg
IMG_20211109_161733.jpg
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
rjb
Posts: 7183
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 10:25am
Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by rjb »

Anyone know if the supplied cables will allow the head unit to reach from the captains bars to the mid drive on the stokers BB. ?
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
stodd
Posts: 706
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by stodd »

rjb wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 4:54pm Anyone know if the supplied cables will allow the head unit to reach from the captains bars to the mid drive on the stokers BB. ?
Seems quite unlikely for standard cables, it would be a lot extra on a normal bike.

When Woosh supplied the XF07 for our tandem they set up the cables to the lengths needed.
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1305
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by bikes4two »

stodd wrote: 9 Nov 2021, 9:11am
bikes4two wrote: 9 Nov 2021, 7:54am Ebrakes are not needed with standard firmware (as in 'as supplied' rather than the Open Source Firmware available for those who want to tweak things) - if you stop peddling the motor stops within 1-1.5secs (you can observe this by looking down at your chain wheel).
1 to 1.5 seconds is a long time if you are doing something like negotiating an awkward obstruction; especially if the motor decides to start during the manoeuvre because of a small turn of the pedals (or extra bit of applied torque). And especially on a tandem.
A fair point - I'll see if I can measure the run-on more precisly - the run-on may partly be the momentum of the drive system as much as anything. All I can say at this point in my experience, I've certainly not detected any motor power 'fighting' my braking efforts (does that description make sense). As a recent adopter of this motor, clearly I have yet to ride through all scenarios, but thus far I've not experienced any riding situations where I've thought of the need to fit ebrakes.

Also in most practical sceanarios requiring the need to brake, you've probably stopped peddaling in advance of the braking action anyway.

Tomorrow I shall see how it feels to be pedalling right up to the moment I brake and feed back to this post 8)

PS - in my post above decribing the weight of the TSDZ2 and battery, I should of course taken into account the removal of the original tripple chainset, bottom bracket, FD and front changer - that's got to be around 1.5 - 2.0 KG?
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
hemo
Posts: 1438
Joined: 16 Nov 2017, 5:40pm
Location: West Sussex

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by hemo »

Tongsheng speed sensor and 6 pin display cable extensions are available.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... 6311b8c7b4
stodd
Posts: 706
Joined: 6 Jun 2018, 10:24am

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by stodd »

bikes4two wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 9:23pm
A fair point - I'll see if I can measure the run-on more precisly - the run-on may partly be the momentum of the drive system as much as anything. All I can say at this point in my experience, I've certainly not detected any motor power 'fighting' my braking efforts (does that description make sense). As a recent adopter of this motor, clearly I have yet to ride through all scenarios, but thus far I've not experienced any riding situations where I've thought of the need to fit ebrakes.

Also in most practical sceanarios requiring the need to brake, you've probably stopped peddaling in advance of the braking action anyway.

Tomorrow I shall see how it feels to be pedalling right up to the moment I brake and feed back to this post 8)
I certainly agree that in most scenarios the brake sensor is not important; just those awkward negotiations through gates and obstacles. Often braking isn't required at all. Indeed sometimes just a fraction more speed is needed for stability, but the motor kicking in (even coming in progressively) gives somewhat more than that fraction. Pressing the break levers is a natural reaction; not actually to apply the brakes at all, just to cut the motor.
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1305
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: E-BIKES KIT CONVERSIONS

Post by bikes4two »

bikes4two wrote: 10 Nov 2021, 9:23pm - I'll see if I can measure the run-on more precisly ?
So, out today on the bike with a friend who has a Cube MTB of some sort with the Bosch Active Line mid mount motor, and a few more observations to add to this thread:
With Regard to the motor run-on after pedalling stops:
  • I couldn't really measure the run-on time with a stop watch. There is a youtube clip somewhere showing the motor run-on but of course I can't find it when I want to!
  • I tried the counting allowed method - pah, not entirely accurate bit I'd say the run-on time was a bit either side of one second, but that really is subjective. I'll try and find a way to mount a camera to capture the moment.
  • On my friend's Cube with the Bosch, I noted he does not have ebrakes either so I tried the run-on test on his bike and his motor also runs on for about the same time. The Bosch chainring is however much smaller than the 42T on the TSDZ2.
  • Next, I put the assist level up to 3 (SPORT) and travelling at around 12 MPH I applied the brakes whilst still pedalling hard. The brakes still stopped the bike in good time so I am happy that any motor run-on when I stop pedalling and then brake is not going to have much effect on the stopping distance.
  • The TSDZ2 comes with the option of 3 displays - the VLCD5, VLCD6 and the XH18-LCD. The latter two are the minimalist ones and far as I can see from the on-line stores, if you go for a kit with either of these display, ebrakes ARE NOT offered. I reckon this is down to the fact that the ebrake cables plug into the VLCD5 display which has an 8-way cable connection to the motor whereas the two small displays only have a 6-way cable. (happy to be corrected on this). My thinking is that sellers of the TSDZ2 with the VLCD6/XH18 don't see the need for ebrakes(?).
especially if the motor decides to start during the manoeuvre because of a small turn of the pedals (or extra bit of applied torque).
I can see the concerns around this point, so I tried a couple of things:
  • At standstill with my (non e)brakes on lightly I pressed down on the pedals in the way that you would ready for take-off: the motor did not kick in.
  • Whilst free-wheeling on a straight stretch I stopped pedalling (the motor stopped) and then stood on the peddles/got out of the saddle: the motor did not kick in.
  • In the Java configurator for the Open Source Firmware, it states that some of the functions employing a throttle should only be used with ebrakes (there are so many options that I can't remember them all) but having bought the VLCD6 version without ebrakes or throttle, the 'out of the box' firmware is set such that the pedals need to be rotating before the motor kicks in.
Anyway, that's the way it is with my TSDZ2 motor. I also ride tandem (not electric - yet!) but with double eccentric bottom brackets (Rohloff IGH fitted) I'd have to use a front hub motor for which I'd consider ebrakes although even then, if I used a KT Torque Simulation Controller, I'd investigate the possibility of doing without ebrakes (I have a friend with this controller fitted - I must see how it works on his bike).
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Post Reply