Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

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saudidave
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Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

I'm a little confused about the battery capacity on my ebike. The motor is a Bosch active line plus that is approaching 3 years old, as is the Powerpack 400 battery that is the original one supplied with the bike, a Raleigh Motus Grand Tour, with a nexus 8 speed IGH. I maintain the bike myself as I always have done and it looks and rides as new.
When I first got it, the range indicated when fully charged in eco mode was around 85-90 miles and in a mix of eco and tour, predominantly eco I could realistically achieve 55-60 miles out of it. After two years fully charged it indicated a range of around 75-85 miles in eco, which I thought was a reasonable decay in battery capacity over a two year period. The range indicated in tour is usually about half of the eco range.
I had major surgery in March of this year and when I returned to cycling in May I started riding the same routes but predominantly using tour mode initially, planning to return to predominantly eco as I got fitter again. I noticed almost immediately that the range indicated in eco after I had charged it fully had increased and was often back to 85-90 miles as it had been when the bike was new, and sometimes more! The battery level wasn't seeming to drop as quickly either, which I put down to warmer weather.
I went out for a 15 mile route yesterday with the battery indicating 89 miles range in eco/47miles in tour. The temperature had fallen by about 6 degrees Celsius from the average over the last couple of months. I was also riding in to a very strong headwind for the first half of the ride. I was in tour the whole ride so would have expected the display to show a remaining range of around 65 in eco and 32 in tour. It actually showed a remaining range of 74 in eco and 42 in tour. After a recharge back up to full it now indicates a range of 101 in eco and 57 in tour!

Why am I getting better mileages riding a mix of predominantly tour than I did in predominantly eco, on the same routes, in similar times, when I haven't lost weight? It makes no sense to me at all.
Last edited by saudidave on 2 Oct 2021, 11:17am, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by Jdsk »

Has there been a software update between the two periods?

Jonathan
saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

Jdsk wrote: 2 Oct 2021, 11:15am Has there been a software update between the two periods?

Jonathan
No! the bike hasn't been in a dealership since I bought it.
The only thing that has changed is that since a bout of atrial fibrillation in early June I've been taking beta blockers which limit my heart rate. I have cardiomyopathy; heart wall thickness 19mm and static Those have also raised a conundrum!. I'm doing the same routes in the same time and my heart rate is around 110 average whereas prior to the beta blockers it was around 125 average. My cardiologist agrees with me that the only answer to that one is that my heart is now working more efficiently, but that obviously doesn't have any effect on the bike battery!
PH
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by PH »

I have a more recent Bosch system, it may or may not be identical, but I suspect it's very similar.
The range indicator is an estimate based on the proceeding X miles and/or minutes of usage, including everything, so if you're working harder, the battery will show a better range. I don't know how that works when I refit a fully charged battery, but it can vary by about 20%. I liked the feature at first, it's very clever, but really pretty much useless, I now ignore it. I'd much prefer a more accurate battery level indicator than the crude bars.
saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

Hi, yes, I know how the indicator works but it isn't anything to do with that!

I'm doing the same routes in the same time, virtually identical times, so I'm not working any harder, almost exactly the same, so my work rate remains the same.

It isn't answering the other points either. If I've worked the same, why would the indicated distance achievable on a full charge go up?

Very simply, if I do a route in 75% eco/25% tour then repeat it with 75%tour/25% eco, you would expect the former to use less battery than the latter. I'm finding that it's the opposite and all other factors of my weight, average speed etc are constant. It's making no sense at all to me.
I can only assume from my findings that the indicator is calculating nonsense and that the engine is more efficient in tour than eco
PH
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by PH »

saudidave wrote: 2 Oct 2021, 12:55pm Hi, yes, I know how the indicator works but it isn't anything to do with that!
In that case I don't know!
you would expect the former to use less battery than the latter.
I would expect that, which is why I'd like a better indicator of remaining capacity. At the moment I can at times have three bars and XX range and other times two bars and a higher range. I did a search when I first got it to better understand how it was calculating, I didn't find a definitive answer, though there were plenty of contradictory explanations. But you'll know from riding that it doesn't take much to make a considerable change. I have a regular hill - Turbo up and freewheel down the other side, next time I do it I'll note the different estimates, bottom, top, bottom.
I have an identical 20 mile commute twice this week, I'm tempted to ride it once in Sport and the other in Eco, and see what the range indicator says the following day on a recharged battery.
saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

I think I may have come up with some sort of answer to this riddle.
The route I'm doing of late is predominantly flat with gentle undulation and only two relatively steep climbs, both of which are traversing rivers, so the climb is preceded by a descent of a similar nature to the subsequent climb, thus I have considerable momentum at the start of those climbs. My theory is that possibly, when I'm in tour I very quickly accelerate beyond 16m.p.h. and then maintain 16 m.p.h+ using my own energy and no battery. When in eco I don't accelerate as fast and thus use more battery energy in the long run, than a short burst to get me beyond the point that the assistance stops. That would also have an effect on the calculated range that the bikes computer comes up with when fully charged.

As a point of interest, I never use sport or turbo generally, particularly turbo as I perceive no more additional help than I get in sport. The only time I've ever used sport for a sustained period was climbing out of the Goyt valley and the battery drain was alarming!
stodd
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by stodd »

PH wrote: 2 Oct 2021, 11:33am The range indicator is an estimate based on the proceeding X miles and/or minutes of usage, including everything, so if you're working harder, the battery will show a better range. I don't know how that works when I refit a fully charged battery, but it can vary by about 20%. I liked the feature at first, it's very clever, but really pretty much useless, I now ignore it. I'd much prefer a more accurate battery level indicator than the crude bars.
A big problem with the indicator is that the X seems to be an absurdly low value, which makes the result so variable as to be useless. (Actually, marginal entertainment value to see yet again how totally stupid it is.)
I absolutely agree that a sensible battery level would be much more use.

I think its knowledge of the rate of use during last X miles carries over after a battery recharge. So if you do a route ending downhill and then recharge you'll get a big quoted range; but after a route ending uphill and recharge a low quoted range.
hamish
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by hamish »

saudidave wrote: 2 Oct 2021, 1:31pm I think I may have come up with some sort of answer to this riddle.
The route I'm doing of late is predominantly flat with gentle undulation and only two relatively steep climbs, both of which are traversing rivers, so the climb is preceded by a descent of a similar nature to the subsequent climb, thus I have considerable momentum at the start of those climbs. My theory is that possibly, when I'm in tour I very quickly accelerate beyond 16m.p.h. and then maintain 16 m.p.h+ using my own energy and no battery. When in eco I don't accelerate as fast and thus use more battery energy in the long run, than a short burst to get me beyond the point that the assistance stops. That would also have an effect on the calculated range that the bikes computer comes up with when fully charged.

As a point of interest, I never use sport or turbo generally, particularly turbo as I perceive no more additional help than I get in sport. The only time I've ever used sport for a sustained period was climbing out of the Goyt valley and the battery drain was alarming!
I think that is at least part of the answer… I have a Bosch powered cargo bike. I find that I tend to ride mostly around the cut off speed and that it doesn’t make much difference which mode I’m in as I’m mostly at the speed at which power assist is fading out.
Xbigman
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by Xbigman »

The most likely reason for the extra range is that you, having been sick, are riding a few miles an hour slower. Speed is a big factor in battery drainage.

Whilst I'm here, I ride exclusively in turbo. As above I find that I cruise about 16.3 mph on the flat with minimal support and what power setting I'm in makes little difference. But the real reason I ride in turbo is that it is more enjoyable. The more enjoyable my rides, the more I ride. Now I have three batteries I'm planning some 100 mile rides for next year. Now I might be able to get 90+ miles out of a powerpack 500 in eco but I'd never do it as it would be a miserable hard ride.

Everyone to their own I guess...


Darren
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bikes4two
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by bikes4two »

saudidave wrote: 2 Oct 2021, 11:18am
The only thing that has changed is that since a bout of atrial fibrillation in early June I've been taking beta blockers which limit my heart rate. ...............................................

My cardiologist agrees with me that the only answer to that one is that my heart is now working more efficiently, but that obviously doesn't have any effect on the bike battery!
  • I too am a sufferer of AF which affects heart efficiency. In my case for example, the 'volumetric throughput' of blood is just 40% of the normal level
  • If your heart is now no longer in AF then as your cardiologist suggests, your heart efficiency will improve which in turn means you will output more 'human' power post AF than you did whilst in AF
  • Thus surely, whilst your perception is that you are riding the same miles with the same effort, in actual fact you are not - you're putting more human power into the ride and this will be reflected in the system's calculation of range,
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

Xbigman wrote: 9 Oct 2021, 11:17pm The most likely reason for the extra range is that you, having been sick, are riding a few miles an hour slower. Speed is a big factor in battery drainage.

Darren
Darren, I haven't been "sick", I had a one off bout of atrial fibrillation that lasted a few minutes! It had no effect on me in terms of slowing me down, incapacitating me etc., and after a thorough check up in cardiology I was told I could give it what for on my bike immediately, I didn't need to recover from any sickness. You will also note that in the second post I made in this thread I clearly stated "I'm doing the same routes in the same time", thus I wasn't going any slower!

Dave
saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

  • I too am a sufferer of AF which affects heart efficiency. In my case for example, the 'volumetric throughput' of blood is just 40% of the normal level
I've only ever had one attack of AF that lasted a short while, a few minutes that I was aware of, then a couple of hours that my smartwatch could detect. I've never had it before or since. It was a brief one off and If I'm totally honest I consider that the AF resulted from excessive alcohol intake in the three days prior to the event.
  • If your heart is now no longer in AF then as your cardiologist suggests, your heart efficiency will improve which in turn means you will output more 'human' power post AF than you did whilst in AF
The improvement in my heart output has nothing to do with AF, but has everything to do with the beta blockers I now take. Because it is slowing my heart output it is allowing the transfer of blood through the chambers more completely and efficiently. Prior to it I recorded times on a route when I wasn't in AF and those are the times i'm doing it in now
  • Thus surely, whilst your perception is that you are riding the same miles with the same effort, in actual fact you are not - you're putting more human power into the ride and this will be reflected in the system's calculation of range,
I'm not putting any more power in to the bike because I'm doing the same circuit in the same time, in the same power level (eco). The watts required to do that are identical in each case, but I'm generating those watts more efficiently. The effort I'm perceiving to do so is no greater or less and I can't notice any difference at all. If it wasn't for a heart rate monitor I'd never have been aware of any difference
[/quote]

Whilst I don't mind taking blood pressure tablets I hate taking the beta blockers as they make me feel sleepy more often and I may stop taking them. Sledge hammer to crack a nut in my opinion and the cardiologist is just covering his arris by prescribing them
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bikes4two
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by bikes4two »

  • I'm pleased to hear that you only had a single attack of AF - long may it stay that way
  • It is the case that many of those with AF are not aware of it and it only comes to light during a routine medical examination for something else
  • Looking back on my own experiences and understanding now how I feel with my own persistent AF, I strongly suspect that I was having brief espisodes (paroxysmal AF) for a good few years beforehand
  • I now have to hand a small portable ECG/EKG device called a KardiaMobile which in conjunction with a smartphone app, gives a good 'single lead' trace of the heart which, if you've been shown how to interpret what you see, can be a useful tool to determine what might be going on
  • it is the case that AF sufferers, (paroxysmal or persistant) face risks of heart complications, so do please take care of yourself
  • Hopefully in your case the increase in battery capacity is due to something entirely technological. :)
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saudidave
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Re: Bosch Battery Capacity improving (range indicated)

Post by saudidave »

bikes4two wrote: 23 Oct 2021, 2:56am
  • I'm pleased to hear that you only had a single attack of AF - long may it stay that way
  • It is the case that many of those with AF are not aware of it and it only comes to light during a routine medical examination for something else
Thanks for your considered response.

I became aware some 15 yeas ago that I had cardiomyopathy after my brother suffered a pulmonary embolism that was investigated and revealed cardiomyopathy. The hospital then contacted me (my brother had Downs) and advised me to get checked. Several of my cousins and an aunt have it too and my father who was a heavy smoker died at 52 from a major heart attack. It is genetic.

I had a full MRI scan of my heart when it was discovered and that revealed a heart wall thickness of 19mm, which is above the norm but far from critical (according to my cardiologist). I was then prescribed blood pressure tablets that have kept me at 120/70 with a resting pulse of been between 50 and 60 ever since.

My heart wall thickness is checked with an echo scan every year and due no doubt to the B.P. tablets and my regular exercise it has remained at 19mm ever since. I have had a 24hour heart monitor every year as part of my checks and it has always shown a perfectly normal sinus rhythm. I bought an Apple watch 3 years ago that has the ability to detect AF and I've done literally hundreds of checks with it and every single one with the exception of that one event has shown a normal sinus rhythm. An angiogram done after the AF has also revealed the my heart, cardiomyopathy aside, is in "remarkably good condition with exceptionally clear vessels for a 68 yr old", to quote the doctor who did it. My VO2 max, tested in September, as part of my participation in a medical trial is also above average

As a result of the constant monitoring and multiple tests, I am reasonably confident that I didn't have AF before the one off event and I haven't had it since. It was the result of a stag do, a wedding, and too much hair of the dog! The medics (including my daughter, a gynaecologist) all insist I should take beta blockers, but I personally, having considered the evidence and the event catalyst think it's an over the top, knee jerk reaction. The logical route in my humble opinion is to avoid excessive alcohol intake at all costs, because a loaded gun is totally harmless if you don't pull the trigger. Beta Blockers are making me excessively sleepy and negatively affecting my quality of life.

None of this can have any affect whatsoever on my ebike battery capacity!
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