The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Summer 2020 - Cycle Magazine announcement about membership changes
Oldjohnw
Posts: 5355
Joined: 16 Oct 2018, 4:23am
Location: Northumberland

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Oldjohnw » 13 Aug 2020, 3:40pm

Doesn't really surprise that the longer you are a member the older you become.

It can probably be illustrated mathematically.
John

ElaineB
Posts: 220
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby ElaineB » 13 Aug 2020, 5:41pm

Yes, and the more you have paid in, which I believe is also mathematical correct!

Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Carlton green » 13 Aug 2020, 7:38pm

ElaineB wrote:Yes, and the more you have paid in, which I believe is also mathematical correct!


As I understand it the more you have paid equates, in some way, to the more years of membership that you have had and that in turn equates to years of (available) membership benefits. We’re in CUK for the benefits that we get out of it.

I hear a lot of complaints about the loss of reduced fees for the older rider but really such people want to ride on the backs of those who already pay the full amount. If someone believes in reduced fees for long term membership then that should be proposed at the AGM, let’s set the reduction to start after 20 years of membership and so potentially give it to people in their late thirties onwards (IMHO being old isn’t a valid reason to get a discount but years of membership is, whilst the two might be linked they are still different).

Are CUK fees too high? Has the ‘club’ become a nice little ‘jolly’ for ‘professional’ charity workers? I wouldn’t like to comment too much but I do mourn the loss of the CTC and would gladly revert back to it.

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Jdsk » 13 Aug 2020, 7:47pm

Carlton green wrote:I hear a lot of complaints about the loss of reduced fees for the older rider but really such people want to ride on the backs of those who already pay the full amount.

I've asked for the arguments in favour of lower fees for older people but TTBOMK haven't seen any.

Jonathan

Vitara
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Joined: 12 Feb 2014, 11:18pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Vitara » 13 Aug 2020, 8:29pm

ElaineB wrote:Both. Most long standing members seem to be over a certain age, well at least the ones I know are!
I was referring to long standing members who have paid in over many years, as previous ctc members and will now be expected to start paying £48 per annum. .


Logically yes Long Standing Members will be of a certain age, if you've been an adult member for 50 years you will obviously be over 65.

But that doesn't mean every member over 65 is a long standing member. Our local group attracts a regular influx of older new members who have retired and find the group rides we offer attractive to them and join CUK so they can ride with us.

Being retired also means they can gain maximum benefit of the groups rides, whereas the small number of working age members will manage a maximum of one Club Ride a week. I'm happy that they can get maximum participation, especially if they go on to contribute to what we do locally, but can't see a compelling argument for reduced membership rates purely on the basis of age.

It's also my experience when on Club Rides with our Retired members that they have a preference for the more upmarket cafes & lunch stops, while the younger members I know, with mortgages, family and other outgoings, have to watch our spending. Obviously there are Retired people on tight budgets (and hopefully they would qualify for the new concessionary rates) but my observation is that paying full membership fees would not be a problem for the Retired Members I know.

ElaineB
Posts: 220
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby ElaineB » 13 Aug 2020, 8:34pm

The long term members were paying the full membership fees until they reached 65 yrs of age. Perhaps the ctc thought they would thank their long term supporters with a concessionary rate, once they reached pension age. Hard to believe today I know, but maybe as the Cyclist Touring Club they had an interest in their club members, as members, not just as people to bring in extra cash.

Bazza55
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Joined: 22 May 2013, 4:56pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Bazza55 » 13 Aug 2020, 8:57pm

Despite the fact that Cycling UK claim they researched members in the Bristol and Chester and N Wales areas regarding these changes, the evidence shows that they have created a storm.(How good was the research?) It is accepted fact that at a time when cycling is growing and membership of other national cycling organisation is seeing increases, Cycling UK figures have been stagnating along for 8 years or more (Since it became a charity actually) Not that Cycling UK are attracting new members, they are, but they can't keep them. Especially when the members wake up and realise that they are being treated as a necessary inconvenience. If these membership changes get through the AGM, the stagnation will cease at last, it will become a reversal over the next 12 months as members refuse to renew their membership, this may also include members under 65 who don't agree with the changes.

Vitara
Posts: 223
Joined: 12 Feb 2014, 11:18pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Vitara » 13 Aug 2020, 9:13pm

ElaineB wrote:The long term members were paying the full membership fees until they reached 65 yrs of age. Perhaps the ctc thought they would thank their long term supporters with a concessionary rate, once they reached pension age. Hard to believe today I know, but maybe as the Cyclist Touring Club they had an interest in their club members, as members, not just as people to bring in extra cash.


That still doesn't provide a convincing argument for a concessionary rate for all members over 65.

What you are suggesting is a concessionary rate for Long Term members.

In fact this already exists

Using the Life Membership calculation sheet:

A 65 year old who has been a member continuously since age 18 can purchase Life Membership at current rates for £138 (effectively less than 3 years annual membership then nothing to pay for life)

A 75 year old who has been a member continuously since age 18 can purchase Life Membership at current rates for £66 (less than 18 months annual membership then nothing else to pay)

Obviously the actual figures depend on length of membership, but the principle still applies, but what that says to me is that CUK already rewards Long Term Members, which seems to be what you are suggesting it should be doing.

If the AGM Motion is passed the calculation for cost of Life Membership will alter. So as already mentioned, anyone who is a long term member migh want to consider applying for Life Membership now.

MartinC
Posts: 1903
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Location: Bredon

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby MartinC » 13 Aug 2020, 11:54pm

Jdsk wrote:I've asked for the arguments in favour of lower fees for older people but TTBOMK haven't seen any. Jonathan


Point of order: this was in the OP from Tony -

"Not withstanding the popular impression that old age retirement is a blissful time, in reality it is usually a depressing decline into wreckage, with progressive loss of capacity and faculty. Any small concession that is offered does go some way to softening the blow to one's self-esteem. The issue is not the financial impact, rather the feeling of still being valued, despite ageing. Many comparable organisations do offer old age concessions: it is somewhat odd that CUK proposes not to and I have not so far encountered any other that engages in means testing with all the associated complexities."

Jdsk
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Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Jdsk » 14 Aug 2020, 12:03am

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sorry if I didn't give the first part the attention it deserves.

Is the part about other organisations not using means testing correct?

Jonathan

ElaineB
Posts: 220
Joined: 9 Apr 2011, 6:15pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby ElaineB » 14 Aug 2020, 7:00am

The long standing members who originally joined the ctc joined a cycling ‘club’. They now realise they are nothing more than members of an organisation with agendas. You only have to read the cuk corporate replies to see how distant the cuk is from what was the ctc. As for wanting to be ‘life members’, most seem happy to let their membership ‘expire’, like the club they first joined seems to have done.

Carlton green
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Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 12:27pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby Carlton green » 14 Aug 2020, 7:30am

ElaineB wrote:The long standing members who originally joined the ctc joined a cycling ‘club’. They now realise they are nothing more than members of an organisation with agendas.

As for wanting to be ‘life members’, most seem happy to let their membership ‘expire’, like the club they first joined seems to have done.


Yep, I joined a cycling club and whilst I don’t doubt that much of what CUK does has merit I’d rather the CTC had stayed as it was and left space for other organisations to do the extras that CUK does. Indeed if it were up to me I’d split CUK up into the traditional CTC core activities and some other group doing the other stuff.

Quite why anyone would want to become a life member of CUK when they don’t share its mindset isn’t completely obvious, well other than they might possibly save some money at some point in the future.

thirdcrank
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Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Aug 2020, 9:58am

I'll suggest that the underlying case for a senior discount here is expectation. It's the foundation of our Common Law. A world of differing expectations has led to the mushrooming of statute law and regulations. Small print is used to manage expectations. The concept was perhaps more familiar to the likes of Gabriel Oak, but it still forms the basis of much we do. Obviously, there has to be progress and this is perhaps why "management of change" seems to form part of so many courses of the MBA type. Carefully chosen words - AKA spin - are insufficient if people think they are being presented with a done deal.

Perhaps there are those who have been surprised, even hurt, by the hostile reaction this has provoked.

Of course, like most things, the issue is "reasonable expectation."

MartinC
Posts: 1903
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Location: Bredon

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby MartinC » 14 Aug 2020, 1:47pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'll suggest that the underlying case for a senior discount here is expectation.........


The reference to Thomas Hardy and Common Law after this was lost on me. I think the expectation is intuitively based on (at least) two things.

In sporting or activity based organisations there's a progression from being a young tyro who's very actively participating in everything through being a veteran who's less active but passing on knowledge and support eventually to being far less active and more supportive. Generally at the younger end you're getting a lot out of it and putting less in to the other end where you've put a lot in and are now getting less out. Sporting club subscription models often reflect this. Cycle touring never quite fitted this model anyway and it certainly doesn't fit CUK now. CUK's expectation that it can retain and leverage further all the old club members and find a new membership for whatever it is now seems a bit optimistic.

Financially every pound you spend when you're young you have the potential to replace over your working life. When you're retired you're spending money you've saved and it can't be replaced. That's an over simplification, there certainly are pensioners who are very comfortable and working people struggling to make ends meet. As the OP pointed out upthread getting old isn't a bed of roses as you watch and feel your all your resources dwindle with no hope of recovery.

I'm not in favour of an age concession as such but discounting for long term members seems like a good thing.

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: The age concession: a crisis of conscience

Postby thirdcrank » 14 Aug 2020, 2:40pm

Gabriel Oak obviously wasn't entirely lost on you. I'll spell it out. People are often resistant to change, especially if it's not to their personal benefit. By definition, progress involves change. Few people object to what they consider a change for the better. Those protesting on here now expected the senior discount to remain and it hasn't - or at least, it's proposed that it won't. The measure - performance indicator(?) - of cUK management will be renewals, new memberships over the next couple of years.

I'm 75 so I know about getting older. I've dental implants, specs etc., so I'm not quite sans everything, but heading that way.

If people hadn't come to expect a senior discount, I doubt they would protest about not getting one.