Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

ScottishGeek
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby ScottishGeek » 15 Jul 2017, 4:03pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
ScottishGeek wrote:
thinkingaboutcycling wrote:Another example of police driver entitlement spotted this week!

Unless you saw the police vehicle drive into the area after the lights had gone to red then it is possible that the driver has done nothing wrong. He may, for example have been already there waiting to turn right when the lights changed.

Green doesn't mean go though does it, there's NEVER an excuse to proceed beyond the stop line, either the junction was going to be clear before you entered in which case you'd be able to go through the light phase just fine or you decided to just go through on the off chance instead of waiting behind the (first) stop line (thus not blocking/encroaching) as you should do even if the lights are green.

HC176
"You must not move forward over the white line when the red light is showing. Only go forward when the traffic lights are green if there is room for you to clear the junction safely or you are taking up a position to turn right.

Thus the HC rule 178 is IMHO a flawed one, there is no excuse to encroach into an ASL. the junction is clear to exit or it isn't, to suggest that if you cannot stop in time for the first stop line it's okay to encroach into an ASL is wrong, it means you made an error in judgement on approach to the junction, either going too fast or you couldn't know the junction would clear in time but thought you'd press on anyway.

You did read GMP's take on it didn't you?

The utility cyclist
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby The utility cyclist » 15 Jul 2017, 6:21pm

yes I did, and it's taken straight from the book, i disagree with the book/rule as I said in my comment. You shouldn't need to go into the ASL AT ALL unless you are going too fast, ignoring the signals or that the junction isn't clear to for you to progress through the junction. So, you should wait behind the first stop line not in the ASL.
WMP et al saying you should stop in the ASl if the light goes red means the driver ignored the amber/was going too fast. WMP are correct in that they repeat the HC regarding ASL but i disagree with the rule as i said and gave my reasoning for that.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby [XAP]Bob » 15 Jul 2017, 9:35pm

The rule isn't wrong, the law is an bottom.

They should be explicitly a motor vehicle stop line and a cyclist stop line. As a cyclist the motorist shouldn't apply, and vice versa.
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mjr
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2017, 11:17am

mercalia wrote:maybe I missed the comment but what is the law on obstruction the cop was referring to?. I am surprised that a cyclist could be done for that? I thought it applied to things like parking in the middle of the road?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/137 and it's more often used for parking obstructing junctions and so on, but it's vague and on the face of it could be used for this, although I doubt it ever is.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby SA_SA_SA » 17 Jul 2017, 1:07pm

[XAP]Bob wrote:They should be explicitly a motor vehicle stop line and a cyclist stop line. As a cyclist the motorist shouldn't apply, and vice versa.

I strongly disagree, I would prefer that people stopped on amber if at all possible, even if they end up in an ASL (which I don't find very useful anyway).

The utility cyclist
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby The utility cyclist » 17 Jul 2017, 3:33pm

And if they're stopping on amber and going at a speed that' takes into account weather and surroundings then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to go into an ASL, none! What if there's no ASL, would it be okay to go over the stop line then, no it wouldn't so treating the ASL as a get out of jail space is utterly wrong and moronic and because it's acceptable it means that drivers do what they like now. :evil:

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RickH
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby RickH » 17 Jul 2017, 9:42pm

I can think of an instance where it is legitimate to have stopped there. Pedestrian suddenly steps out into road (either not paying attention, not caring or I do know a few junctions where pedestrian lights can confuse people as to what ways have a green man or not by looking at the wrong one) while lights are green. Car does emergency stop into ASL. Lights change.

It may not be all that frequent (although, given the number of people who seem to just keep walking across junctions without looking...) but it is possible. :)

Having said that a lot of drivers seem to just stop where they feel like it ASL or not. It isn't infrequent that I see cars stopped with only their rear wheels in the ASL (&, sometimes, slowly creeping so they are fully across the front ASL line before the lights change). It isn't as though the lights have suddenly changed, I've seen it happen when the lights are red when the car is a good 50-100 yards from the line.

The ones I understand least are the drivers who stop well beyond the line when there isn't a far side traffic light. They can no longer see the lights when they go green until following cars start beeping (I must admit to being tempted - but not actually succumbed - to just give a random beep while the light is still red if I'm in the car stopped behind such a driver! :twisted: )

brynpoeth
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby brynpoeth » 18 Jul 2017, 6:06am

Never never trust a moton

Most of them do not actually stop and apply the handbrake and put the gear in neutral, they creep forward

Never never trust a moton
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby SA_SA_SA » 18 Jul 2017, 10:26pm

A human Driver sees amber and brakes: due to small braking error they enter the ASL, but as desired by some posters here they end up being fined, prosecuted etc....

I don't see how this can do anything but reduce respect for amber.

The utility cyclist wrote:And if they're stopping on amber and going at a speed that' takes into account weather and surroundings then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to go into an ASL, none! What if there's no ASL, would it be okay to go over the stop line then, no it wouldn't so treating the ASL as a get out of jail space is utterly wrong and moronic and because it's acceptable it means that drivers do what they like now. :evil:

Apart from the possibility being human and making a small braking error whilst trying to obey the amber...And if an stop line with no following ASL was crossed due to braking error but lamp still amber (even if changes to red shortlly after) then no offence has been commited.....
(If no ASL, a slight overrun seems better than amber gambling).


I often see vehicles accelerate at amber (gambling) and often losing, thus crossing stop line during red and entering junction at full tilt, I want this discouraged and laws about it enforced.

Barks
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby Barks » 18 Jul 2017, 11:52pm

Still crap driving by a police officer who should really not be getting himself into such a position - but then, as with the original OP, some policemen exhibit such poor attitude to cycling they are actually prepared to take a cyclist to task for... just being in their way.

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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby The utility cyclist » 19 Jul 2017, 8:42pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:A human Driver sees amber and brakes: due to small braking error they enter the ASL, but as desired by some posters here they end up being fined, prosecuted etc....

I don't see how this can do anything but reduce respect for amber.

The utility cyclist wrote:And if they're stopping on amber and going at a speed that' takes into account weather and surroundings then there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to go into an ASL, none! What if there's no ASL, would it be okay to go over the stop line then, no it wouldn't so treating the ASL as a get out of jail space is utterly wrong and moronic and because it's acceptable it means that drivers do what they like now. :evil:

Apart from the possibility being human and making a small braking error whilst trying to obey the amber...And if an stop line with no following ASL was crossed due to braking error but lamp still amber (even if changes to red shortlly after) then no offence has been commited.....
(If no ASL, a slight overrun seems better than amber gambling).


I often see vehicles accelerate at amber (gambling) and often losing, thus crossing stop line during red and entering junction at full tilt, I want this discouraged and laws about it enforced.

A 'small error' with 1.5-40 tons of mass at even 30mph is enough to kill a human being, don't make errors in judgement, don't second guess the lights, read the road ahead and just because the lights are green doesn't mean you can just press on regardless. there's ZERO excuse to stop even part ways in an ASL and I've given the reasons why. Trying to make out someone making a 'small' error is acceptable just isn't, what if there is someone in that ASL, they'll be injured/killed because of your 'small error'.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby SA_SA_SA » 20 Jul 2017, 10:37am

The utility cyclist wrote:Trying to make out someone making a 'small' error is acceptable just isn't, what if there is someone in that ASL, they'll be injured/killed because of your 'small error'.

No they won't: if someone was already in the ASL (or just in front) any conscientous driver would be already modifying their progress to avoid driving into the back of them irrespective of light colour wouldn't they: so a completely unreasonable accusation.

The utility cyclist wrote:...
A 'small error' with 1.5-40 tons of mass at even 30mph is enough to kill a human being, don't make errors in judgement, don't second guess the lights, read the road ahead and just because the lights are green doesn't mean you can just press on regardless. there's ZERO excuse to stop even part ways in an ASL and I've given the reasons why.


This is a complete misrepresentation: I wasn't suggesting accepting amber gambling (note I clearly said I wanted that dealt with by enforcement: easy with red light cameras....gamblers eventually lose and cross on red), or mistakes involving crossing a stop line at red at 30mph: I am talking about a normal conscientious but human driver who would conscientously rather stop when presented with amber if at all possible than go on but whose braking may occasionally be out a little and so may very occasionally overshoot stopline (during amber) a little (due to guard times no-one else will have been allotted priority over them yet). Traffic light engineers recognise this and call it the dilemma zone. The idea that law abiding cyclists never overshoot a stop line a little (while lamp still amber) seems rather unlikely. I despair.

But the small error isn't at 30mph if they only overshoot by a few feet, as over those last few feet they won't being going fast will they?. Reasonableness seems a dying idea to me. Again, I despair. ASLs aren't worth this: IMO either leave the law as it is or just get rid of them then.

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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby The utility cyclist » 20 Jul 2017, 10:25pm

No it's not an unreasonable accusation, you think no-one has being struck by motorists whilst in the ASL, why would you make that unreasonable assumption? How many times has one heard, i didn't stop because of fear of being rear ended, not just on a bike but in a car also, lots is the answer, it's an every day occurence for goodness sakes!

When presented with an amber you should be looking to stop at the FIRST stop line, you should already be looking before the lights change to see if the way ahead is clear, if not you should slow right down/come to a stop and wait behind the FIRST stop line, if you can't you were going too fast/not looking/actioning correctly.
why do you think it reasonable to be going so fast/being inattentive that you cannot stop at the first stop line and thus block the safety zone specifically put in place to protect vulnerable road users?
if the ASL were not there would it be acceptable to go 2 metres past the stop line, if not, why not?
I despair at your inability to understand simple aspects of driving safely, stop making excuses, if you aren't able to stop for the first line that's not a 'minor error', it's potentially endangering vulnerable road users and blocking their rightful passage, it's lazy at best and inattentive/undue care at worst, just to save a few metres/seconds!
To repeat, If you can't stop for the first stop line you're doing one of these.
1. Going too fast
2. Not paying attention to what is happening in front or the lights/ proceeding when the exit is not clear.
3. Amber gambling/trying to beat the lights

Your view and that of others is wrong as is current law, it gives far too much leaway to lazy/inattentive/selfish drivers, thinking it's okay to roll into an ASL thus preventing a safe zone for others is ludicrous!

Adnepos
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby Adnepos » 21 Jul 2017, 12:22pm

I think there are exceptional instances for stopping in a motor vehicle in an ASL. Just an illustration from many years back... driving a car at a safe speed but being followed far too close by another driver in a car, traffic signals ahead changed to amber so I stopped but didn't feel safe braking too hard and I went over the stop line.

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mjr
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Re: Police driver demonstrates the motorists' sense of entitlement

Postby mjr » 21 Jul 2017, 1:14pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:A human Driver sees amber and brakes:

All too rarely! Far more seem to see amber and boot it to try to get through before red. Heck, even the first few seconds of red see a few press on through.

Bring back red light cameras. Calibrate them to enforce the first stop line at ASLs. This stuff's too easy to automate to devote loads of police officers to it.
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