Two stage right turn and bus bypass

thirdcrank
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Nov 2017, 4:35pm

Some years ago I listened to the top highwayman in the Urban Traffic Control (UTC) part of Leeds City Council talking about the light sequence at a particular junction when he said that he had done everything possible to provide for pedestrians so any improvements for cyclists would be to the detriment of those pedestrians.

What he was really saying was this:

Using the then latest computer analysis techniques, he had devised a sequence to maximise the capacity of the junction in terms of traffic flow. He had then worked out the phases for the pedestrian signals which best fitted in with that. ie green men for the pdestrians when the traffic was stopped by the lights. Anything for cyclists would, therefore, be to the detriment of pedestrians. The given was that the signal sequence for (motor) traffic was not open to discussion. This is why I made this comment above:

If they do improve conditions for cyclists, IMO that's quite incidental to their principle purpose of getting cyclists out of the equation at junctions to maximise capacity


Bear in mind that when my highwayman was talking, it was at a time when the govt's stated aim was to reduce the level of traffic, later changed to reducing the rate of the growth in traffic. Since all such "aspirations" - as they were described when they were not met - went out of the window years ago, I cannot see why things are likely to change with the likes of Grayling in the, er, driving seat.

Pete Owens
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby Pete Owens » 13 Nov 2017, 7:34pm

Pete Owens wrote:And in the Edinburgh video they appear to be reinforcing the compulsion to use their farcilities by sticking in humps to forcibly dismount any cyclist attempting to filter into the correct lane for their manoeuvre.


... or to get round parked trucks:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/95011/

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby SA_SA_SA » 13 Nov 2017, 9:54pm

mjr wrote:Because then the bus can't depart until there's a lull in the cyclists riding past.

Highway code rule 223
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-users-requiring-extra-care-204-to-225
I am still composing a reply to your other post.

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mjr
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby mjr » 14 Nov 2017, 8:27am

SA_SA_SA wrote:
mjr wrote:Because then the bus can't depart until there's a lull in the cyclists riding past.

Highway code rule 223
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-users-requiring-extra-care-204-to-225
I am still composing a reply to your other post.

Which conflicts slightly with rules 211, 159 and 160.

In practical terms, cycling in bus lanes is often a pretty awful experience, either the Lane has to be extra wide or buses are slowed to cycling speed (or sadly more often they close pass or tailgate), and the overtaking width lane by a stop actually takes up more width than a bus lane, a stop island and a cycle lane because the island is in the overtaking clearance.

Plus isn't the long term plan to leave open putting trams up the middle of Leith Walk?
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby SA_SA_SA » 14 Nov 2017, 11:11am

mjr wrote:...

Which conflicts slightly with rules 211, 159 and 160.

I don't see how. If cars and motorcyclists can give way (eg by slowing or stopping) to a bus signalling its desire to move off (rather than OVERtaking it) why can't cyclists do it in a suitable road position?

mjr wrote:[
In practical terms, cycling in bus lanes is often a pretty awful experience, either the Lane has to be extra wide or buses are slowed to cycling speed (or sadly more often they close pass or tailgate), and the overtaking width lane by a stop actually takes up more width than a bus lane, a stop island and a cycle lane because the island is in the overtaking clearance.

Plus isn't the long term plan to leave open putting trams up the middle of Leith Walk?

I like bus lanes, though my local ones are usually only wide enough for buses, so they must change lane to the all-purpose lane to pass a cyclist unless the cyclist(me) lets them past . Once in front of a bus I can usually stay ahead of it due to its stops.
Currently local buses are all normal length, I am not sure what routes with the new double length articulated ones will be like (I would rather have an L or standard length buses but they are supposed to look like trams so as motorists will get on them.....) . Has Mainland Bus deregulation has had a bad effect on Bus driving standards?


I don't know: wouldn't Edinburgh cyclists want to oppose any more roads lost to tram tracks (unless on an ELevated/separate path) ?

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mjr
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby mjr » 14 Nov 2017, 11:39am

SA_SA_SA wrote:
mjr wrote:...

Which conflicts slightly with rules 211, 159 and 160.

I don't see how. If cars and motorcyclists can give way (eg by slowing or stopping) to a bus signalling its desire to move off (rather than OVERtaking it) why can't cyclists do it in a suitable road position?

They can, but the bus departure is still delayed until enough do to cause a lull. The conflict is that there's 223 telling cyclists to let buses pull out, but the other three basically telling drivers not to pull out into cyclists.

I like bus lanes, though my local ones are usually only wide enough for buses, so they must change lane to the all-purpose lane to pass a cyclist unless the cyclist(me) lets them past . Once in front of a bus I can usually stay ahead of it due to its stops.

Most of my experience cycling in bus lanes has been various London ones (CS7 and CS8) and the outer section of Dereham Road Norwich - all of them have enough buses (about every 5 minutes off-peak, more at commuting time) to mean they maybe stop less often than some lane with a few buses an hour. It's a really low-quality experience cycling in a bus lane.

As for the idea that a bus driver must change lane, hah! They do but rarely fully. If one even passes wide enough that you don't get tugged around by the draught, that's unusual. If a bus lane were wide enough for cyclists to pass a stopped bus (say 2.5m bus + 1.5m clearance + 1.0m cycle = 5m) but not the extra metre or so for a bus to pass a cycle that's not stopped at the kerb, I suspect drivers would be more likely to attempt a close pass without crossing the lane line.

Has Mainland Bus deregulation has had a bad effect on Bus driving standards?

Quite possibly. LondonBusWatch makes me think that even the more managed London market is pretty poor. I can only guess what's going on in the rest of the country with unreasonable targets for drivers and older buses, but I've reported a couple of Stagecoach bus drivers for apparently doing their paperwork or using mobile devices while driving along bus lanes. :(

Locally, there's a repeating pattern: local challenger starts up with new/refurbished buses, smart drivers, polite driving and so on, takes over routes from whichever national oligopolist was here by competition and purchase, then sells up to another of the national oligopolists, the new buses get transferred elsewhere and we get dirty old clunkers from more competitive markets and driving standards seem to fall like a stone.

I don't know: wouldn't Edinburgh cyclists want to oppose any more roads lost to tram tracks (unless on an ELevated/separate path) ?

As far as I can tell, the local cycling campaign (Spokes Lothian) still broadly supports trams (because they should reduce motoring volumes?) but seeks better design of cycleway/tramway crossings.
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby SA_SA_SA » 14 Nov 2017, 12:31pm

If cars and motorcyclists can give way (eg by slowing or stopping) to a bus signalling its desire to move off (rather than OVERtaking it) why can't cyclists do it in a suitable road position?

mjr wrote: The conflict is that there's 223 telling cyclists to let buses pull out, but the other three basically telling drivers not to pull out into cyclists.

Err, but the other 3 are telling drivers to take care to look out for cyclists/motorcyclists etc, and specifically to take care not to move off while vehicles are already passing them, so I don't see how that applies to cyclists who are still behind politely giving way by slowing or stopping, just like any other vehicle.


2) A pity: it does then sound like deregulation has had a bad effect.
NB I saw a programme about London Tfl Buses having some sort of bus-spacing-out device that tells driver to speed up/slow down to stop buses clumping together:
this seems to me to be a distracting device guaranteed to increase risk to vulnerable road users*:-----
the driver should simply drive according to conditions and if the bus is detected as ahead of schedule the device should be simply request it wait a bit longer if already at a stop or to stop and wait at next stop.

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mjr
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby mjr » 14 Nov 2017, 12:50pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:NB I saw a programme about London Tfl Buses having some sort of bus-spacing-out device that tells driver to speed up/slow down to stop buses clumping together:
this seems to me to be a distracting device guaranteed to increase risk to vulnerable road users*:-----
the driver should simply drive according to conditions and if the bus is detected as ahead of schedule the device should be simply request it wait a bit longer if already at a stop or to stop and wait at next stop.

Yeah, the much-hated "headway indicator". It shouldn't really be needed in London, as the traffic lights run by TfL too should be able to monitor bus passage and simply prioritise or delay buses to prevent clumping, especially where bus lanes have their own signals.

The biggest danger arises when the bus is detected as too far behind the preceding one and then the headway indicator basically advises the driver to go faster than they would normally, then following buses also have to do the same to preserve the gaps and suddenly you've a succession of buses going faster than is safe - and of course it's worse if they're sharing a bus lane with cyclists, plus bad for pedestrians at all times. A guest on Tom Kearney's blog explains a bit more http://saferoxfordstreet.blogspot.co.uk ... quiry.html (Tom Kearney was a walker put into a coma by a London bus that cut a corner in 2009.)

So I don't really trust bus drivers to indicate and allow cyclists enough time to create a gap before pulling out. I much prefer the bypass / island stop layout with a distinct cycle lane to the left of the bus lane because they can't pull out into me like they've tried so often.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby SA_SA_SA » 14 Nov 2017, 1:01pm

But I presume headway indicators are only in London, and the problem should be fixed by seeking a ban while opposing their spread elsewhere. Would a court count them as a distraction ? I wonder has anyone taken Tfl to court over it for a pedestrian accident?

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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby PRL » 14 Nov 2017, 4:53pm

I have no problem with buses keeping to times - more non-cyclists choosing buses = fewer cars ; but overtaking buses at stops is always problematic. Drivers either indicate to pull out but wait for any possible overtaking traffic ( a pain if you have pulled in behind) or indicate and pull out simultaneously (fun if you are just about to overtake). The bus stop by-pass is great.

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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby mjr » 14 Nov 2017, 6:34pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:But I presume headway indicators are only in London, and the problem should be fixed by seeking a ban while opposing their spread elsewhere. Would a court count them as a distraction ? I wonder has anyone taken Tfl to court over it for a pedestrian accident?

London's buses don't stay in London forever and because it's primarily bus-borne, with the units reporting bus GPS locations back to their operator, I don't see why headway indicators couldn't be used elsewhere, although I've no knowledge of whether they actually are. With few other places penalising bus operators as much for clumping, I doubt there's the incentive yet.

I doubt courts would count the indicator display as more of a distraction than a satnav or speedo, so I'd be surprised if anyone has taken TfL to court for them. It's a massive game of pass-the-buck, with TfL blaming BusCos for what they tell their drivers to do to meet TfL's targets, BusCos blaming drivers for the unsafe driving needed to meet their headway targets and drivers basically in a lose-lose situation - drive safely and get fired for not meeting the targets, drive unsafely and stay employed until someone is hurt. :-(
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Pete Owens
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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby Pete Owens » 14 Nov 2017, 11:31pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:I like bus lanes, though my local ones are usually only wide enough for buses, so they must change lane to the all-purpose lane to pass a cyclist unless the cyclist(me) lets them past . Once in front of a bus I can usually stay ahead of it due to its stops.

Me too - pretty much ideal provision for cyclists. A virtually motor traffic free environment - properly designed, constructed, well surfaced and guaranteed to be wide enough to cycle in - with none of the dangerous absurdities you get with segregated cycle farcilities.

Buses tend to travel at roughly the same average speed as cyclists so usually you will travel the entire length of a bus lane without encountering a single bus. Ideally they are wide enough for buses and cyclists to overtake each other, but if not it is no big deal. It is not usually worth the trouble of overtaking if you happen to encounter a stopped bus - you might as well wait for it to start again than play leap-frog along the route. Similarly if a bus encounters a cyclist they might as well follow to the next stop which will only be a few hundred meters away.

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Re: Two stage right turn and bus bypass

Postby MikeF » 22 Nov 2017, 8:12pm

Pete Owens wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:I like bus lanes, though my local ones are usually only wide enough for buses, so they must change lane to the all-purpose lane to pass a cyclist unless the cyclist(me) lets them past . Once in front of a bus I can usually stay ahead of it due to its stops.

Me too - pretty much ideal provision for cyclists. A virtually motor traffic free environment - properly designed, constructed, well surfaced and guaranteed to be wide enough to cycle in - with none of the dangerous absurdities you get with segregated cycle farcilities.

Buses tend to travel at roughly the same average speed as cyclists so usually you will travel the entire length of a bus lane without encountering a single bus. Ideally they are wide enough for buses and cyclists to overtake each other, but if not it is no big deal. It is not usually worth the trouble of overtaking if you happen to encounter a stopped bus - you might as well wait for it to start again than play leap-frog along the route. Similarly if a bus encounters a cyclist they might as well follow to the next stop which will only be a few hundred meters away.
Bus lanes don't exist around here, but the ones in London allow taxis and motorcycles as well, so cyclists have those to contend with as well. Segregated cycling facilities are only absurd if the design is wrong.
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