Have your say on changes to the Ultra Low Emission Zone and Low Emission Zone in London

[mercalia]

Have your say on changes to the Ultra Low Emission Zone and Low Emission Zone in London
Closes 28 Feb 2018

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-3b/?cid=airquality-consultation


We invite you to provide your views. Please read this information, then complete the online questionnaire
https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/air-quality-consultation-phase-3b/consultation/subpage.2017-11-29.7192468685/

[craigbroadbent]

done

[RobC]

Being a total NIMBY here, but this is really unfair for those with rarely used modern classic 1980s/1990s petrol cars who happen to live within North/South Circulars (i.e. me!). Probably 1% of the petrol cars (which are only 12% of the problem as it is), if that.

Main culprits are vans, taxis, busses, diesels, and HGVs. Hammer to crack a nut, etc.

I ride through London every day so I know how bad the air quality is tho, and something must be done... Am I a hypocrite? probably

[Cyril Haearn]

Being a total NIMBY here, but this is really unfair for those with rarely used modern classic 1980s/1990s petrol cars who happen to live within North/South Circulars (i.e. me!). Probably 1% of the petrol cars (which are only 12% of the problem as it is), if that.

Main culprits are vans, taxis, busses, diesels, and HGVs. Hammer to crack a nut, etc.

I ride through London every day so I know how bad the air quality is tho, and something must be done... Am I a hypocrite? probably

Maybe you can fit a filter or catalyst to your classic
I had a Jetta I, 1984
What is yours?

[RobC]

A filter or cat would make no difference to the arbitrary ban - they simply go by date of registration.

I've got a Citroen BX

By not buying a new car I've saved the world plenty of environmental damage. I know that this low emission zone is about a localised problem rather than global, but still...

[The utility cyclist]

Older non Euro 6 diesel vehicles ( even Euro 4) have been tested and found to have same if not lower NOx emissions in real world use compared to some brand new Euro 6 compliant vehicles.
Also there is already an existing disparity.
The ‘conformity factor’ lobbied for by car manufacturers means cars that exceed the limit set in Euro 6 by 100% (i.e. produce 160mg/km of NOx rather than the 80mg/km limit or under) will be considered compliant with Euro 6 standards until 2021, when the tolerance will reduced to 50% of the 80mg/km limit.

I strongly oppose to increasing the current zone and the raising of the standard as the standard Euro 6 is actually not conformed to by many vehicles (as per the conformity factor) which means vehicles designated EURO 6 are in fact not meeting that standard in real world use. If non EURO6 in fact are cleaner then there is an obvious problem with respect to actual pollutants and having a fair system in place and indeed would be allowing vehicles to avoid the charges despite exceeding the levels of NOx in real world use but charging/restricting use of vehicles that have a real world emissions level that is lower but are designated EURO4 or even E5.

I'll dig out the real world testing on older vehicles but here's just one report https://www.theicct.org/news/road-teste ... ss-release

[Mark R]

If non EURO6 (diesels are) in fact are cleaner

They aren't!

Get away from the idea that NOx is the only pollutant we need to be concerned about. A lot of of your EURO 4 and 5 diesels are soo incredibly filthy that they actually leave a lingering stench in the air as they pass. By no stretch of the imagination could you describe them as being cleaner. The NOx can be lower but overall they are just plain filthy and need to go ASAP.

Not that I believe any of the industry BS about EURO6 diesels being clean and green.... once they get some wear and tear and the complex emission controls start to malfunction (most already fail to meet the standards for NOx) - they too will become the next generation of stinkers

[Mark R]

A filter or cat would make no difference to the arbitrary ban - they simply go by date of registration.

I've got a Citroen BX

By not buying a new car I've saved the world plenty of environmental damage. I know that this low emission zone is about a localised problem rather than global, but still...

Its unfortunate the British way is to have some arbitiory age limit on vehicles. In Germany for example you would be able to convert your BX to LPG and get the green sticker to allow you into central Berlin etc. This would also be a reasonable solution for all those 1000's of ultra toxic diesel black cabs... but no, its not the British way it seems.

https://www.umwelt-plakette.de/en/information-about-german-environmental-badge/the-german-environmental-badge/who-can-obtain-the-german-environmental-badge.html

You might consider writing to your MP asking why you are not allowed to upgrade your vehicle to the relevant environmental standard (unless it happens to be a diesel , in which case only a change of engine type would make it acceptably clean ~).

[The utility cyclist]

If non EURO6 (diesels are) in fact are cleaner

They aren't!

Get away from the idea that NOx is the only pollutant we need to be concerned about. A lot of of your EURO 4 and 5 diesels are soo incredibly filthy that they actually leave a lingering stench in the air as they pass. By no stretch of the imagination could you describe them as being cleaner. The NOx can be lower but overall they are just plain filthy and need to go ASAP.

Not that I believe any of the industry BS about EURO6 diesels being clean and green.... once they get some wear and tear and the complex emission controls start to malfunction (most already fail to meet the standards for NOx) - they too will become the next generation of stinkers

So filthy in fact that as tested on the roads EURO4 vehicles were CLEANER than EURO6, did you not bother to read that bit? Some EURO6 diesels were as high as 12x the limits set out in E6. Yes you could argue that doesn't apply to all vehicles but clearly many vehicles are not just over but many mulitple times over and when actually compared to older vehicles were emitting MORE NOx AND CO2. What other pollutants are you talking about?

At the moment where people like yourself are duped into thinking that petrol is all sweetness and light, it really isn't, added into which the current testing procedures for the E6 diesel is massively flawed and as I said there's even a 100% leeway on the set limit in the lab for them too!

Either we test all vehicles properly in use or one cannot apply a fair system that is meant to be penalising the most polluting.
You just want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore the issue that real world testing has shown up the limits to be an utter joke that can be broken due to the motorvehicle manufacturers lobbying parliament/EU and that many vehicles even with this conformity leeway don't even get close to that in any case.

[Mark R]

So filthy in fact that as tested on the roads EURO4 vehicles were CLEANER than EURO6, did you not bother to read that bit?

I think you read what you wanted to read and not what was on the page!

The NOx might well have been lower. Does this make the older diesels CLEANER overall? What about the particulate matter and the aldehydes and other hydrocarbons which make our roadside air stink so much? What does your nose tell you?

BTW i'm no fan of EURO6 diesels and I don't think they should be allowed into clean air zones. This is because this NOx emissions are still way above the threshold for most models and also because history tells us that diesels age horribly WRT emissions. This will also be the case with EURO6 because there is nothing fundamentally different about the technology apart from the urea injection equipment (which will probably turn out to be unreliable).


Personally I can't wait for diesel cars to go back to being a niche product and I long for the day I can bike across town without the stench of partially combusted diesel fuel in my nostrils