Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

SA_SA_SA
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Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby SA_SA_SA » 7 Nov 2018, 5:28pm

I found the following alarming:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46127496

because it seems rather than criticise/charge the driver with driving faster than they could see (by headlamps/streetlamps) they have instead attempted to charge the/a pedestrian.

What about injured persons lying in the road, will they be charged next?

EDIT Note the reason this alarmed me is because I remember this post https://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2015/02/criminal-prosecutions-arising-from-road.html which contained the following
More (21) involved pedestrians but the Inspectors were critical of overcharging (yes, overcharging) in 4 of those cases that involved running down a pedestrian at night because prosecutors and police 'imposed an unrealistic standard of driving on the suspects in these cases'.


Most people seem to driver faster than dipped beams allow.

EDIT if the pedestrian jumped out at the last minute such that even in daylight braking could not avoid a collision, surely that would be mentioned).

If the (unidentified) pedestrian did jump out when the car was too close to stop (even if driving within headlamp range) as above sentence then I retract the post but still feel it would be balanced to point out the necessity of drivers to drive within range of dipped beam.
Last edited by SA_SA_SA on 8 Nov 2018, 11:48pm, edited 2 times in total.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Nov 2018, 6:05pm

My reading of that case is that the defence was that there was insufficient evidence to identify the defendant as being the person who was standing in the carriageway and was alleged to have caused the crash. ie With stronger evidence of identification, a conviction was more likely.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby SA_SA_SA » 7 Nov 2018, 6:14pm

But for the crash to happen the driver needs to be driving faster than the distance they can see to stop in..... that was their responsibility as a vehicle driver.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby Pete Owens » 7 Nov 2018, 9:03pm

thirdcrank wrote:My reading of that case is that the defence was that there was insufficient evidence to identify the defendant as being the person who was standing in the carriageway and was alleged to have caused the crash. ie With stronger evidence of identification, a conviction was more likely.

But what is the chance of selecting a jury by random and happening to include 11 utter morons out of 12?

thirdcrank
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Nov 2018, 10:19pm

A prosecution lawyer had claimed there was a powerful and persuasive circumstantial case against the defendant.


It's only the briefest of reports so we don't know what the evidence was against the defendant but the prosecution seems to accept it was circumstantial. Nothing wrong with that, but it has to be strong enough to convince the jury beyond reasonable doubt. We don't know, for instance if there were other people in the area. As the driver didn't see the defendant till it was too late, it's possible someone else witnessed the defendant's conduct but couldn't identify him. The jury doesn't seem to have got to the point of deciding whether falling about drunk in the road might amount to manslaughter if it caused a fatal crash. OTOH, Perhaps they took the same view as the OP that it was all the driver's fault. We'll never know.

On several recent threads we've had a certain amount of criticism of careless pedestrians. Short of deliberately causing a crash, it's hard to see anything more careless than falling about drunk in the carriageway.

brooksby
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby brooksby » 8 Nov 2018, 2:45pm

It took the jury *five hours* to decide...!

pete75
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby pete75 » 8 Nov 2018, 5:32pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:But for the crash to happen the driver needs to be driving faster than the distance they can see to stop in..... that was their responsibility as a vehicle driver.


Really? It depends how far away the car was when the guy staggered out into the road and started waving his arms about. Is a driver responsible when drunks start capering about on the highway?
From the linked story 'The trial heard that Mr Ferguson had been walking home after his stag do having consumed an "enormous" amount of alcohol' and 'his explanations in key aspects of the case were: "I don't know. I can't be sure. It's a bit of a blur."'

Pete Owens
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby Pete Owens » 8 Nov 2018, 7:46pm

brooksby wrote:It took the jury *five hours* to decide...!

While it is extremely unlikely for a randomly selected jury to include 11 utter morons, there is always the possibility of one. And in this case they seem to have been utterly intransigent. I suspect 11 of the jury will have reached their conclusion within minutes, and then waited 5 hours until the judge was prepared to accept a majority verdict.

pete75
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby pete75 » 8 Nov 2018, 8:21pm

Pete Owens wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:My reading of that case is that the defence was that there was insufficient evidence to identify the defendant as being the person who was standing in the carriageway and was alleged to have caused the crash. ie With stronger evidence of identification, a conviction was more likely.

But what is the chance of selecting a jury by random and happening to include 11 utter morons out of 12?


What's your point?

brynpoeth
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby brynpoeth » 8 Nov 2018, 8:23pm

When driving one must always reckon with stray animals, fallen branches, even people walking from A to B

Seems bizarre to bring charges in this case
Cycling - of course, but it is far better on a Gillott..alternative facts welcome

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby SA_SA_SA » 8 Nov 2018, 8:29pm

pete75 wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:But for the crash to happen the driver needs to be driving faster than the distance they can see to stop in..... that was their responsibility as a vehicle driver.


Really? It depends how far away the car was when the guy staggered out into the road and started waving his arms about. Is a driver responsible when drunks start capering about on the highway?
From the linked story 'The trial heard that Mr Ferguson had been walking home after his stag do having consumed an "enormous" amount of alcohol' and 'his explanations in key aspects of the case were: "I don't know. I can't be sure. It's a bit of a blur."'

I would not have posted if that was true:
But the news didn't say staggered out from behind something it just claimed he was standing in the middle of Road (see under photo in linked article).
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pete75
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby pete75 » 8 Nov 2018, 9:26pm

SA_SA_SA wrote:
pete75 wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:But for the crash to happen the driver needs to be driving faster than the distance they can see to stop in..... that was their responsibility as a vehicle driver.


Really? It depends how far away the car was when the guy staggered out into the road and started waving his arms about. Is a driver responsible when drunks start capering about on the highway?
From the linked story 'The trial heard that Mr Ferguson had been walking home after his stag do having consumed an "enormous" amount of alcohol' and 'his explanations in key aspects of the case were: "I don't know. I can't be sure. It's a bit of a blur."'

I would not have posted if that was true:
But the news didn't say staggered out from behind something it just claimed he was standing in the middle of Road (see under photo in linked article).

Yes but how long had he been standing there. From the description of the amount he'd had to drink etc I doubt he'd be able to actually stand still anywhere.

SA_SA_SA
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Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby SA_SA_SA » 8 Nov 2018, 11:42pm

pete75 wrote:.....
Yes but how long had he been standing there. From the description of the amount he'd had to drink etc I doubt he'd be able to actually stand still anywhere.

Thats just conjecture. Also, why would the driver not mention him stepping out?

I have added a note to the OP, explaining why a prosecution of poorly identified pedestrian with no criticism of overdriving of headlamps made me uneasy. Most people seem to overdrive their dipped headlamps.....
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brynpoeth
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Nov 2018, 3:31am

SA is right
Most drivers should lose their licences
Cycling - of course, but it is far better on a Gillott..alternative facts welcome

pete75
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Re: Attempt to charge NI pedest for causing night accident rather than mention driver for overdriving headlamps..

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 9:27am

SA_SA_SA wrote:
pete75 wrote:.....
Yes but how long had he been standing there. From the description of the amount he'd had to drink etc I doubt he'd be able to actually stand still anywhere.

Thats just conjecture. Also, why would the driver not mention him stepping out?

I have added a note to the OP, explaining why a prosecution of poorly identified pedestrian with no criticism of overdriving of headlamps made me uneasy. Most people seem to overdrive their dipped headlamps.....


The decision was made by someone with far more knowledge of the events than either of us. Your suggestion of over driving of headlamps is merely conjecture.