£220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

reohn2
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Dec 2019, 2:28pm

brynpoeth wrote:Whatabout London? Lots of buses, tubes and the like there, they run early and late too

A small part of the UK which I feel sure many NHS staff will use the good public transport infrastructure available to them,the rest of the UK isn't like London,of which I'm sure you're aware
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Carlton green
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby Carlton green » 3 Dec 2019, 4:25pm

reohn2 wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Whatabout London? Lots of buses, tubes and the like there, they run early and late too

A small part of the UK which I feel sure many NHS staff will use the good public transport infrastructure available to them,the rest of the UK isn't like London,of which I'm sure you're aware


Plus one.

‘London’ has a population of circa 9 million people - which is roughly eight times larger than the next largest U.K. City - and to some extent it is a ‘City’ that does not sleep. The extent to which public transport keeps going around the clock and how far it does so from the centre is questionable, as is the financial ability of NHS workers to live in those central and very expensive areas. Indeed ‘what about London’, a lot of the time it’s in its own unique bubble and so parallels between it and the rest of the country are of but small value and very likely to be misleading too.

brynpoeth
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby brynpoeth » 3 Dec 2019, 4:36pm

London should be offered independence from r UK and be required to import food at interesting prices
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Pete Owens
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby Pete Owens » 3 Dec 2019, 5:41pm

reohn2 wrote:I don't think they are,they're saying it's an unwelcome additional cost to visiting relatives or attending as outpatients.

Car storage is one of the cost of running a car - it is not an "additional" cost. Now car users have become so used to storing their cars at other peoples expense that they grumble when as they actually have to pay for the resourses they consume.
But to get back to the OP NHS shouldn't have to pay to park at work,

So should cyclists not have to pay if they stoke up at the hospital cafe? Should they not have to pay bus fares if they travel by more environmentally responsible means? Or is it just car owners that shouldn't pay?
especially those on 'frontline' sevices such as doctors and nurses more so when they are working unsocial hours when there's little or no choice but the car.

The people with little choice are those than do not own a car. Car owners have more choices - and once you own a car then it is likely to be more convenient for many journeys so their is a powerful incentive to use it for all journeys - especially if the costs are subsidised.

NHS staff may work unsocial hours, but shift patterns are designed so that they travel when public transport operates. Quite rightly, unlike some of the motorist posters here, they realise that many of their staff do not own cars.
I'm all for reducing car use

Yet you are advocating public subsidy to incentivise it.
but

Ah - there always is the "but" - just like whenever you hear someone say "I'm not a racist, but ..." you know what to expect
in some instances and profssions they're unavoidable,making staff pay in such circumstances is outrageous.
Example:- I've had two short stays in hospital in the past 3 years,nurses on othe wards in both instances were working 12hour shifts about 6am to 6pm and 6pm to 6am,not exactly ideal for spending an hour or more hnging around for buses at the beginning end of what is a stressful job.

Certainly depriving someone of sleep and subjecting them to 12 hours of stress is likely to render them unsafe to to be in charge of a motor vehicle. Waiting for a bus is boring not stressful and once you get on you can sleep; driving a car most certainly is stressful and requires you to be fully alert.

If you were travelling for work as opposed to away from work the any responsible employer would prohibit you from driving under such circumstances.
As an aside,one trainee nurse on placement for 6 months who lived in Mosside Manchester had to travel to Wigan by bus and train a journey of 21/2hours each day either end of a 12 hour shift.
I asked her why she couldn't have been placed closer to home she told me she had to go where she was sent,and no bursary either.
To continue a little with this trainee nurse's story,her mother with herself and her brother had fled Ethiopia after her father had been killed.
After a few conversations it was apparent what a beautiful soul this young Muslim woman is,I hope she does well in her chosen profession

Oh the irony; telling the story of a non-motorist to justify subsidising motorists.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Dec 2019, 6:23pm

reohn2 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
diapason wrote:Many hospitals are on the edge of towns and nurses etc work unsocial hours. There is little or no public transport at night and certainly not to rural areas. It isn't safe for women to be cycling alone during the middle of the night. Car sharing is hardly possible with shifts starting and finishing during the night, and staff coming from a huge rural area.

Are they, how many of the big city/town hospitals are 'out of town'? Norwich I know is on the ring road but it's hardly miles out the way for most residents, most big cities have their main hospitals within easy reach of residential areas.

Local to me Stevenage Hospital is on the edge of the town which is very spread out like many of the new towns but at least does have a segregated path from some places, at the very most from the extreme other side of the town it's 4.8 miles, I'd say most hospitals are within easy cycle distance for a very large ortion of residential areas.

It doesn't follow that staff,patients and vistors are local or that they can get there easily.

There needs to be more incentive and better access/storage/facilities plus better joined up transport thinking.

That's more likely to be the problem,that and the fact that cycling isn't always possible for everyone,or for people needing to get to work in bad weather conditions.

You mean to say that not ALL staff/patients/Visitors are 'local' but a significant portion will be across the country won't they?

Here's the Nuffield data from 13 million A&E admissions for England https://www.health.org.uk/sites/default ... cyCare.pdf

"The mean distance between a person’s home and the A&E department that they attended was 7.2 kilometres (km) (4.4 miles), with a median of 4.2 km (2.6miles), based on analysis of 13 million attendances in 2011/12.
"The shortest average distance was 2.5 km (1.6 miles) for residents of the London Borough of Camden." Over half of the population are within 3.7miles of an A&E dept.

Given that not all hospital visits are A&E so other hospitals for specific treatments are going to be more widespread travel for out patients and other specialist treatments are going to be shorter than that for A&E depts, people in larger cities/towns are much more likely to have shorter travel times, this is where the bigger/more numerous hospital/NHS sites are. I think it's valid to extrapolate from that, that for a significant number of NHS staff, whether main hospitals or otherwise that they are 'local' and within reasonable cycling distance.
I shall look for the data for staff travel distances if there is any.
See above re A&E distances
pwa wrote:There needs to be more incentive and better access/storage/facilities plus better joined up transport thinking.

I can only speak about the hospitals I know, and all I can say is that of the four I have had to visit a lot over the last couple of years, three are about twenty miles away and seriously arduous to get to from my home by public transport. And as I was taking my elderly mother on many of those visits, twice a day and seven days a week, adding an hour to the journey at each end and waiting at bus shelters in the rain was out of the question. The other hospital is closer but not near a bus station so still not really practical to get to by bus. Hospitals these days are not local. Depending on the patient's illness they may end up being treated at the nearest hospital but they are likely to end up at a hospital some distance away that specialises in their condition.[/quote]

reohn2
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Dec 2019, 6:58pm

Pete Owens wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I don't think they are,they're saying it's an unwelcome additional cost to visiting relatives or attending as outpatients.

Car storage is one of the cost of running a car - it is not an "additional" cost. Now car users have become so used to storing their cars at other peoples expense that they grumble when as they actually have to pay for the resourses they consume.

Ordinarily I'd agree but people sometimes don't have a choice for the reasons covered up thread
But to get back to the OP NHS shouldn't have to pay to park at work,

So should cyclists not have to pay if they stoke up at the hospital cafe? Should they not have to pay bus fares if they travel by more environmentally responsible means? Or is it just car owners that shouldn't pay?

Don't be silly,car owners are already paying to run their cars.

The people with little choice are those than do not own a car

That's correct and I have no argument with that.
Car owners have more choices - and once you own a car then it is likely to be more convenient for many journeys so their is a powerful incentive to use it for all journeys - especially if the costs are subsidised.

The problem is as you point out about people without cars,the public transport system is dire that is why they use the car,were there a better system of local travel people might use it,and I strongly suspect the reason for car park fees isn't anything to do with pollution,but making money for an underfunded NHS from a captive collection of people.

NHS staff may work unsocial hours, but shift patterns are designed so that they travel when public transport operates. Quite rightly, unlike some of the motorist posters here, they realise that many of their staff do not own cars.

You sure about that?



I'm all for reducing car use

Yet you are advocating public subsidy to incentivise it.

It's not much of a subsidy providing parking for staff working unsocial hours in stressful work environments such as doctors and nursing .

Ah there always a but

I'll treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.


Certainly depriving someone of sleep and subjecting them to 12 hours of stress is likely to render them unsafe to to be in charge of a motor vehicle. Waiting for a bus is boring not stressful and once you get on you can sleep; driving a car most certainly is stressful and requires you to be fully alert

Oh please stop the straw clutching!

Oh the irony; telling the story of a non-motorist to justify subsidising motorists.

No telling the story to illustrate how employers treat their trainee staff by sending them to far off hospitals to train when there are others closer to where they live.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby Bonefishblues » 3 Dec 2019, 7:07pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I suspect it's a more subtle and sophisticated calculation than that, given the undoubted positive impact on patient outcomes of visits from friends and family

Would you really want visits from people who'd only come to see you if they could park for free?

Obvious gross misrepresentation is obvious :lol:

reohn2
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Dec 2019, 7:20pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:Are they, how many of the big city/town hospitals are 'out of town'? Norwich I know is on the ring road but it's hardly miles out the way for most residents, most big cities have their main hospitals within easy reach of residential areas.

Local to me Stevenage Hospital is on the edge of the town which is very spread out like many of the new towns but at least does have a segregated path from some places, at the very most from the extreme other side of the town it's 4.8 miles, I'd say most hospitals are within easy cycle distance for a very large ortion of residential areas.

It doesn't follow that staff,patients and vistors are local or that they can get there easily.

There needs to be more incentive and better access/storage/facilities plus better joined up transport thinking.

That's more likely to be the problem,that and the fact that cycling isn't always possible for everyone,or for people needing to get to work in bad weather conditions.

You mean to say that not ALL staff/patients/Visitors are 'local' but a significant portion will be across the country won't they?

Here's the Nuffield data from 13 million A&E admissions for England https://www.health.org.uk/sites/default ... cyCare.pdf

"The mean distance between a person’s home and the A&E department that they attended was 7.2 kilometres (km) (4.4 miles), with a median of 4.2 km (2.6miles), based on analysis of 13 million attendances in 2011/12.
"The shortest average distance was 2.5 km (1.6 miles) for residents of the London Borough of Camden." Over half of the population are within 3.7miles of an A&E dept.

Given that not all hospital visits are A&E so other hospitals for specific treatments are going to be more widespread travel for out patients and other specialist treatments are going to be shorter than that for A&E depts, people in larger cities/towns are much more likely to have shorter travel times, this is where the bigger/more numerous hospital/NHS sites are. I think it's valid to extrapolate from that, that for a significant number of NHS staff, whether main hospitals or otherwise that they are 'local' and within reasonable cycling distance.
I shall look for the data for staff travel distances if there is any.
See above re A&E distances
pwa wrote:There needs to be more incentive and better access/storage/facilities plus better joined up transport thinking.

I can only speak about the hospitals I know, and all I can say is that of the four I have had to visit a lot over the last couple of years, three are about twenty miles away and seriously arduous to get to from my home by public transport. And as I was taking my elderly mother on many of those visits, twice a day and seven days a week, adding an hour to the journey at each end and waiting at bus shelters in the rain was out of the question. The other hospital is closer but not near a bus station so still not really practical to get to by bus. Hospitals these days are not local. Depending on the patient's illness they may end up being treated at the nearest hospital but they are likely to end up at a hospital some distance away that specialises in their condition.
[/quote]
Not everyone cycles perhaps because of topography but more than likely because of the dire cycling infrastucture,public transport can be equally as bad.
Not everyone especially if they're unwell will be able to do either.
Our nearest hospital is 4miles away which I have problem cycling to and from however Mrs R2 does these days for her appointments,there's no buses that go near enough for us catch and so we use the only our form of transport our car,if we didn't we'd have to use a taxi.
Her other appointments are to hospitals 12 and 25miles away,the one 12miles away if we didn't have a car the journey is a two bus journey,the other would a bus journey to the train statikn and a further two buses from the train station at the other end.

But that's not what the OP is on about but the additional cost levied on NHS staff for going to work which I'm in agreement with PWA that it is unfair.
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pete75
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby pete75 » 3 Dec 2019, 7:44pm

reohn2 wrote:
But that's not what the OP is on about but the additional cost levied on NHS staff for going to work which I'm in agreement with PWA that it is unfair.

The OP isn't exactly against this charge. He/she says "Everyone will do anything to avoid paying this charge, well apart from walking, getting the bus or cycling. Not really true as one person did tell me that as they only lived 10 minutes from the hospital that they might consider cycling to work."
And "At the moment I must say I am winding the car users up a bit by saying that the £220 seems a bit reasonable as I thought they could really charge around £300."

What he/she was objecting to is the prospect that all might be charged the fee regardless of whether they drive to work or not.

reohn2
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Dec 2019, 7:47pm

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
But that's not what the OP is on about but the additional cost levied on NHS staff for going to work which I'm in agreement with PWA that it is unfair.

The OP isn't exactly against this charge. He/she says "Everyone will do anything to avoid paying this charge, well apart from walking, getting the bus or cycling. Not really true as one person did tell me that as they only lived 10 minutes from the hospital that they might consider cycling to work."
And "At the moment I must say I am winding the car users up a bit by saying that the £220 seems a bit reasonable as I thought they could really charge around £300."

What he/she was objecting to is the prospect that all might be charged the fee regardless of whether they drive to work or not.

And that's why I done here.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby Bonefishblues » 3 Dec 2019, 7:56pm

millimole wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I suspect it's a more subtle and sophisticated calculation than that, given the undoubted positive impact on patient outcomes of visits from friends and family
You can take that line any way you want to absurd levels.
There is an undeniable number of people in hospital due to motor vehicle use. Reducing that would reduce the number of people in hospital, and reduce the number of visitors.

That's why I said it was a more sophisticated calc that needed to be done, balancing harm and benefit on a societal basis. I don't know what the net outcome would be, but there are smart people who should be doing the maths and recommending such techniques such as 'nudge' as well as 'big stick' interventions.

brynpoeth
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby brynpoeth » 3 Dec 2019, 8:16pm

A wise person once said:
It is agreeable to be with people one agrees with
But one learns much more from those with other opinions :wink:

Does that apply here?
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Syd
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£220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby Syd » 3 Dec 2019, 8:56pm

reohn2 wrote:
NHS staff may work unsocial hours, but shift patterns are designed so that they travel when public transport operates. Quite rightly, unlike some of the motorist posters here, they realise that many of their staff do not own cars.

You sure about that?


I can say I am sure about that. As someone who has worked in the NHS for over 27 years and, recently, also been an inpatient and witnessed current shift patterns ‘from the inside’ which reaffirmed what I already knew.

reohn2
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby reohn2 » 3 Dec 2019, 9:07pm

Syd wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
NHS staff may work unsocial hours, but shift patterns are designed so that they travel when public transport operates. Quite rightly, unlike some of the motorist posters here, they realise that many of their staff do not own cars.

You sure about that?


I can say I am sure about that. As someone who has worked in the NHS for over 27 years and, recently, also been an inpatient and witnessed current shift patterns ‘from the inside’ which reaffirmed what I already knew.


So all that needs fixing now is our diabolical public transport system
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pwa
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Re: £220 per year to park you car at work, the joys of the NHS.

Postby pwa » 3 Dec 2019, 9:39pm

reohn2 wrote:
Syd wrote:
reohn2 wrote:

You sure about that?


I can say I am sure about that. As someone who has worked in the NHS for over 27 years and, recently, also been an inpatient and witnessed current shift patterns ‘from the inside’ which reaffirmed what I already knew.


So all that needs fixing now is our diabolical public transport system

I can tell you with absolute certainty that nobody in my village will get to a 7am work start by bus because the buses don't run early enough. You'd need to be starting at about 9am to make it by bus.