Philosophy diversion>>>> !Pete Owens wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 1:30am Of course in a free society there is option 7. If someone wants to jump off the bridge what right has anyone else to stop them?
Humber Bridge now open to cyclists & pedestrians
Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Just applied for a pass. This was the reply.
We are only permitted essential work commuters whose only means are to walk or cycle across the bridge to work to cross the bridge so please can you provide me with all of the following?
- your mobile number
- company you work for
- what days of the week do you travel to work
- do you travel out north to south or south to north
- what times do you cross the bridge both ways.
We are only permitted essential work commuters whose only means are to walk or cycle across the bridge to work to cross the bridge so please can you provide me with all of the following?
- your mobile number
- company you work for
- what days of the week do you travel to work
- do you travel out north to south or south to north
- what times do you cross the bridge both ways.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Just a tad overly bureaucratic...PaulS wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 3:11pm Just applied for a pass. This was the reply.
We are only permitted essential work commuters whose only means are to walk or cycle across the bridge to work to cross the bridge so please can you provide me with all of the following?
- your mobile number
- company you work for
- what days of the week do you travel to work
- do you travel out north to south or south to north
- what times do you cross the bridge both ways.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
This means that if this had happened around 5 years when tandem partner and self, having, after a late lunch at Barton on Humber, had arrived at the bridge we would have been told to sod off! Would the fact that we booked on that evening's Hull / Rotterdam ferry have been our hard luck?
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
No, as I would have billed the bridge company.Teggletone wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 5:06pm This means that if this had happened around 5 years when tandem partner and self, having, after a late lunch at Barton on Humber, had arrived at the bridge we would have been told to sod off! Would the fact that we booked on that evening's Hull / Rotterdam ferry have been our hard luck?
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Does suicides significantly relate to -the maintenance, operation, management, improvement, repair and renewal of the bridge ?General powers
(1)Subject to the other provisions of the Humber Bridge Acts 1959 to 2013, the Board may:
(a)do anything which appears to the Board to be necessary or desirable for the purpose of, or in connection with, the maintenance, operation, management, improvement, repair and renewal of the bridge;
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2013/6/enacted
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
I'd have to say I don't really know and I don't know where "significantly" came from there.
That General Powers section also has this:
That General Powers section also has this:
I fancy that's a lawyers' way of saying 'there isn't money to burn.' They've revised the byelaws in conjunction with the 2013 Act.(2) In exercising the powers of this section, the Board must have regard to the desirability of minimising in the longer term the level of tolls to be levied in respect of vehicles passing over or on the bridge.
http://hb.coldstardev.co.uk/wp-content/ ... laws-1.pdf4. Drivers of Vehicles, riders of Bicycles and horses and pedestrians shall comply with all notices and signals displayed on the Bridge or vehicle Parks by or under the authority of the Board and with directions given by an authorised officer which notices, signals and directions require traffic:- (etc.)
Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Even without that framing phase behaving reasonably with respect to suicides would be part of "management" and at times part of "operation". But "anything which appears to the Board" makes the scope enormous.Steady rider wrote: ↑19 Apr 2021, 7:27pmDoes suicides significantly relate to -the maintenance, operation, management, improvement, repair and renewal of the bridge ?General powers
(1)Subject to the other provisions of the Humber Bridge Acts 1959 to 2013, the Board may:
(a)do anything which appears to the Board to be necessary or desirable for the purpose of, or in connection with, the maintenance, operation, management, improvement, repair and renewal of the bridge;
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2013/6/enacted
Jonathan
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
I fancy that if anything constrains the HBB here, it's this under s12 of that 2013 Act
AIUI, the relevant bits of the RTRA which cover this are ss 1 and 2. Again AIUI, something like this needs a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO.)(3) The Board is deemed to be the traffic authority for the highway on the bridge for the purposes of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/contents
There may be something else which would be obvious to a learned friend which I have missed.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
I am wondering if with the cycle/pedestrian path being provided on both sides they form part of the primary function of catering for people crossing the river, local and long distance cyclists. By local cyclists having to provide employment and other details, that adds to management and operations duties I expect, the HBB could be adding day to day work to their staff.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
I don't know what's in the two earlier Humber Bridge acts so there might be something in there. Otherwise, in layman's terms the route over the bridge is a public road - thoroughfare if trying to talk posh. In terms of traffic management, not much different to any old road. The linked HB Act puts the HBB in the same position as what used to be the highway authority, more recently the traffic authority and for most people "the council," or that level of local authority responsible for roads.
Traffic authorities have various duties and powers to enable them to operate within a legal framework. Traffic regulation orders allow then to do what it says ie regulate traffic and are dealt with under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (linked above.) These fall into three categories: an ordinary TRO which is for things like one-way streets and prohibited manoeuvres; experimental eg we had one in Leeds for the experimental High Occupancy Vehicle Lane; and temporary, which covers things like major roadworks or emergencies like a landslip.
I can't see that any of those powers are relevant here which is in itself irrelevant as the boilerplate letter from the HBB to cUK says they haven't made a TRO of any sort.
AIUI, traffic authorities in general err on the side of caution with TROs in that they will often make one for even very minor road alterations if there is the slightest restriction of existing traffic. They have legal departments for this purpose. On the HB there are officials who, amongst other things have quasi-police powers in respect of traffic control, which I suspect somebody has assumed means they can close the HB to cyclists and pedestrians indefinitely and now reopen selectively. On the HBB there are representatives of the local authorities saddled with the debt and not much else on the agenda that would be bread-and-butter for the usual traffic authority.
Had the HB been built as a new "special road" usually a motorway, there would have been no requirement to provide for prohibited traffic, in this case cyclists and pedestrians, but it's always been a general purpose road so provision for cyclists and pedestrians must be provided in the longer term.
Enforcing rights of way etc is not something I know much about. I suspect it involves obtaining some sort of court order.
Traffic authorities have various duties and powers to enable them to operate within a legal framework. Traffic regulation orders allow then to do what it says ie regulate traffic and are dealt with under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (linked above.) These fall into three categories: an ordinary TRO which is for things like one-way streets and prohibited manoeuvres; experimental eg we had one in Leeds for the experimental High Occupancy Vehicle Lane; and temporary, which covers things like major roadworks or emergencies like a landslip.
I can't see that any of those powers are relevant here which is in itself irrelevant as the boilerplate letter from the HBB to cUK says they haven't made a TRO of any sort.
AIUI, traffic authorities in general err on the side of caution with TROs in that they will often make one for even very minor road alterations if there is the slightest restriction of existing traffic. They have legal departments for this purpose. On the HB there are officials who, amongst other things have quasi-police powers in respect of traffic control, which I suspect somebody has assumed means they can close the HB to cyclists and pedestrians indefinitely and now reopen selectively. On the HBB there are representatives of the local authorities saddled with the debt and not much else on the agenda that would be bread-and-butter for the usual traffic authority.
Had the HB been built as a new "special road" usually a motorway, there would have been no requirement to provide for prohibited traffic, in this case cyclists and pedestrians, but it's always been a general purpose road so provision for cyclists and pedestrians must be provided in the longer term.
Enforcing rights of way etc is not something I know much about. I suspect it involves obtaining some sort of court order.
Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
It is overly bureaucratic, It is also very restrictive and creates other problems. The bicycle (or walking) must be your only means of transport. They exclude activities other than essential workers. So visiting friends & family, child care and contact arrangements, parent care, photography, bird-spotting, are all excluded. They get to decide who are essential workers. Maybe they will contact employers to check. And telling their staff at which specific times people will be alone on the bridge is potentially risky too. The reply from HB made no mention of data protection or safeguarding.
But for me the key exclusion is, of course, leisure cycling and touring. I have lost half of my available routes. Half of my favourite day rides.
That is a big loss.
There doesn't seem to be an effective way to push back in the short term. Others here are working on the legal or lobby route which seems to have a bit of leverage. But I still haven't thought of a way to cause them problems, without causing me a load of hassle or getting into trouble. Ideas anyone?
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Check if anybody on the HBB is a representative of your local authority and write to them expressing your concerns, eg that the body of which they are a member is acting unlawfully. Mention the approaching local elections. As to whether that makes any difference, who knows?
Here's a start - they seem to be happy enough publishing their mugshots.
https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/humberbr ... r%20LEP%20
===============================================================================
While looking through all that I've found THE CONSTITUTION
https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/wp-conte ... s-2020.pdf
S 6 covers decisionmaking and includes this nugget
It's occurred to me that the HBB is probably covered by the toothless watchdoggy, also known as the local government omsbuddy. Some thing of an obstacle course to register a complaint and the likelihood of success small, but the relevant authority cannot just fob them off.
https://www.lgo.org.uk/
Here's a start - they seem to be happy enough publishing their mugshots.
https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/humberbr ... r%20LEP%20
===============================================================================
While looking through all that I've found THE CONSTITUTION
https://www.humberbridge.co.uk/wp-conte ... s-2020.pdf
S 6 covers decisionmaking and includes this nugget
=====================================================================================All decisions taken in the discharge of a function of the Board shall have regard to the following matters:
(...)
6.2.2 The need for consultation with interested parties
(...)
It's occurred to me that the HBB is probably covered by the toothless watchdoggy, also known as the local government omsbuddy. Some thing of an obstacle course to register a complaint and the likelihood of success small, but the relevant authority cannot just fob them off.
https://www.lgo.org.uk/
Last edited by thirdcrank on 20 Apr 2021, 11:05am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
Thanks. Got it. Donethirdcrank wrote: ↑20 Apr 2021, 10:28am Check if anybody on the HBB is a representative of your local authority and write to them expressing your concerns, eg that the body of which they are a member is acting unlawfully.
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Re: Humber Bridge closed to cyclists & pedestrians indefinitely
It would be worth writing to your MP. This is an issue of genuine local concern rather than party politices so they might be prepared to do moire than a simple brush off. (though a cycle ride with a specific purpose - rather than just a wider choice of leisure rides is likely to gain more sympathy)PaulS wrote: ↑20 Apr 2021, 10:23am There doesn't seem to be an effective way to push back in the short term. Others here are working on the legal or lobby route which seems to have a bit of leverage. But I still haven't thought of a way to cause them problems, without causing me a load of hassle or getting into trouble. Ideas anyone?
If you want to get stroppy and take legal direct action you could try dismounting and walking your cycle across on the carriageway - since the prohibition is only for cycling not walking.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.6922806 ... 312!8i6656
You might even be able to recruit the local branch of the Ramblers to do a pedestrian critical mass
If you know someone on the other side you could arrange for them to "employ" you as a gardner on the days you fancy a trip to Yorkshire.