Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Pinkie
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Joined: 14 Nov 2021, 1:29am

Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Pinkie »

Steady rider wrote: 16 Nov 2021, 6:13pm USA info in the last post.

East_Riding_of_Yorkshire - 960 sq miles - 0.6 million pop
West Yorkshire - 783 sq miles - 2.3 million pop
On average staff would likely live much closer in a West Riding prison compared with one in a rural setting in the East Riding.
https://stamfordbridgebypass.wordpress.com/blog/ shows populations. Wiki for areas.
Staff are more likely to move closer or only apply for jobs within easy commuting distance of where they live, saying that things which are easily transferable to a new location, like people, are more likely to live in a distant location, is a big assumption. As is assuming they cant recruit a few dozen from the local area, I am betting, that one of the things on the planning app, is they will try to recruit locally, they always say that
Pete Owens
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Pete Owens »

Steady rider wrote: 16 Nov 2021, 6:13pm USA info in the last post.

East_Riding_of_Yorkshire - 960 sq miles - 0.6 million pop
West Yorkshire - 783 sq miles - 2.3 million pop
On average staff would likely live much closer in a West Riding prison compared with one in a rural setting in the East Riding.
https://stamfordbridgebypass.wordpress.com/blog/ shows populations. Wiki for areas.
The "logic" of your position is that there should be no employment whatsoever in the East Riding of Yorkshire.
Or is it just the prison officers of the area you wish to condemn to unemployment?

Of course the distance prison officers (or any other workers) commute depends on how far they choose to live from their place of work - not the size of the local authority district their work place happens to be in. There are plenty of houses within easy cycling distance of Long Sutton - many of them will be occupied by people with long commutes to work in distant cities.
Steady rider
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Steady rider »

Long Sutton is perhaps about 100 miles from Full Sutton, so will not have much bearing.

The Full Sutton location is rural without a frequent bus service. It is likely that about 95% of trips by staff and visitors will be by car. Some staff may live an hour away and drive 30 to 40 mile each way. Only a relative small number of prison staff live in Full Sutton. ( about 1000 trips per day can be expected for staff and visitors)

West Yorkshire has about 2937 people per square mile v 625 for the East Riding, a rate 4.7 times higher. Providing a mega prison in the West Yorkshire area, with good access to public transport and cycle route, may have reduced car travel mileage per day by 70-80%.

The government failed to properly consider a range of sites and the environmental impact of travel for staff and visitors.
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Bonefishblues »

Steady rider wrote: 17 Nov 2021, 4:30pm Long Sutton is perhaps about 100 miles from Full Sutton, so will not have much bearing.

The Full Sutton location is rural without a frequent bus service. It is likely that about 95% of trips by staff and visitors will be by car. Some staff may live an hour away and drive 30 to 40 mile each way. Only a relative small number of prison staff live in Full Sutton. ( about 1000 trips per day can be expected for staff and visitors)

West Yorkshire has about 2937 people per square mile v 625 for the East Riding, a rate 4.7 times higher. Providing a mega prison in the West Yorkshire area, with good access to public transport and cycle route, may have reduced car travel mileage per day by 70-80%.

The government failed to properly consider a range of sites and the environmental impact of travel for staff and visitors.
What part does this play in the formal process? (As in, what weight is ascribed to this?)

Presumably it's one of a whole plethora of factors taken into account, do the papers show it was not properly considered in some way?
Steady rider
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Steady rider »

Details regarding possible other sites in the Yorkshire region were considered confidential and not released. The planning application was lodged and approved without viewing any information regarding other potential sites in the region. Failing by government and the Justice Committee and the planning process. They did have a criteria with listed objectives.

https://www.gupc.org.uk/media/Notices/1 ... ection.pdf gives some idea of criteria, land ownership by the MoJ is listed
All planning applications should be based on their merits, not on who owns the land, otherwise land could be purchased and the owner says I need to build X or Y, regardless of how suitable the site is.
Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Bonefishblues »

That's a document from a local pressure group. Are there no published criteria?
Pinkie
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Pinkie »

Steady rider wrote: 17 Nov 2021, 6:43pm Details regarding possible other sites in the Yorkshire region were considered confidential and not released. The planning application was lodged and approved without viewing any information regarding other potential sites in the region. Failing by government and the Justice Committee and the planning process. They did have a criteria with listed objectives.

https://www.gupc.org.uk/media/Notices/1 ... ection.pdf gives some idea of criteria, land ownership by the MoJ is listed
All planning applications should be based on their merits, not on who owns the land, otherwise land could be purchased and the owner says I need to build X or Y, regardless of how suitable the site is.
Be honest you just don't want it near you, everything else is a smoke screen isn't it ?
Tangled Metal
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Tangled Metal »

If I may be allowed to put my guesses, pseudo facts, estimates and anecdotal evidence in too, I would say it matters little where it's put for commuting reasons. All people I know of were not put in prisons near where they and family lived. They were often moved around. Families often had to travel hundreds of miles to visit.

Prison workers I know live in Lancaster area and commuted to Preston, Liverpool area and further.

Of course if you don't want it near you, where there are already prisons, that's an opinion. Equally valid as other people in West Riding not wanting it near them, or other area you think the issues should be displaced to.

Fact is we're warehousing people instead of tackling root causes. Interesting programme on BBC Scotland last night on poverty. A guy from the "wrong side of Edinburgh" filmed a documentary that started on crime and ended on poverty and wealth being part of the same problem. I think it was a Scottish rapper doing the documentary.

Take a look for it because that guy has an amazing grasp of issues. I've found people like him through work. Wrong side of town, little prospects, no education but intelligent as the brightest oxbridge alumni. It's enlightening to know people like them but sad because so much potential has been lost to society.

I think the human warehouses are the same. Lost potential. That potential was likely lost because of poverty.

From that documentary research indicates young children from all backgrounds have the same aspirations for their life. A few years on into teenager ages and the poverty kids have lost that aspirations but richer kids still have it. The poverty kicks out aspiration because of fewer options for them. It's the same issue generationally too.

Sorry! I have come over all socialist! R2, pwa and others might start agreeing with me. Shudders!
Steady rider
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Steady rider »

Of course if you don't want it near you, where there are already prisons, that's an opinion. Equally valid as other people in West Riding not wanting it near them, or other area you think the issues should be displaced to.
One approach would that each area provides sufficient prison places ( minor crimes) for the number being convicted. High security prisons would be different or have larger areas or combined areas.

My own approach would be for minor offences, usually a tag system could be employed initially, plus community work, plus mental health evaluation and recommendations if needed. If repeat offences or for serious offences a prison sentence is considered.
Pinkie
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Pinkie »

Steady rider wrote: 18 Nov 2021, 8:13pm
Of course if you don't want it near you, where there are already prisons, that's an opinion. Equally valid as other people in West Riding not wanting it near them, or other area you think the issues should be displaced to.
One approach would that each area provides sufficient prison places ( minor crimes) for the number being convicted. High security prisons would be different or have larger areas or combined areas.

My own approach would be for minor offences, usually a tag system could be employed initially, plus community work, plus mental health evaluation and recommendations if needed. If repeat offences or for serious offences a prison sentence is considered.
I'd be suprised if somewhere with half million inhabitants couldnt fill a small prison, ? Maybe it is a local jail for local people ?
Steady rider
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Steady rider »

Maybe it is a local jail for local people ?
This seems a good summary, travel for visitors would be closer, staff may be local, interaction between medical/mental health and means to avoid re-offending could be considered. Areas could be compared to see the offending rates in various areas and explore why some will be higher than others and connected variables. Each local prison should be located with good cycle access and cycle route/ public transport.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Pete Owens wrote: 15 Nov 2021, 10:51am Perhaps your petition might have more impact if your campaign identified who's back yard you thought was a more appropriate location for the prison and gathered signatures from the residents of that location to please build a prison in their neighbourhood.
Even when you do that (because the inappropriately located building is a school) the money flows from the council to the councillor’s companies as they build a school on a well used green field rather than the location where there is a lack of schools and existing outline planning permission for said school…
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Steady rider
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Re: Petition for a public inquiry into prison plans

Post by Steady rider »

All sorts of examples may come to light.

I am interested if anyone on here has experience in flood risk and sequential tests, and how they should be applied.

The planning system gets complicated and for cyclists trying to make a difference, it can become very hard in some circumstances, collectively Cycling UK may benefit from a Campaigns committee, in addition to the staff they employ.
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