Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Silverdorking
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Silverdorking » 27 Oct 2015, 7:12pm

No problem cycling through Cathedral Close past the Elgar on his bike statue! Shopping centre pedestrianised zone for the convenience of shopping pedestrians, just like so many cities I cycled through on my recent Lejog!

brynpoeth
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Jul 2019, 5:03am

Sir Edward must be turning in his grave
Mind, he gave up cycling back then because there were too many motors
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Carlton green
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Carlton green » 22 Jul 2019, 8:56am

One of my friends who used to live in Hereford cycled to work in the city centre so it is possible to cycle there, they also used to use their bike for light shopping. Parts of the city centre are pedestrianised and pedestrian use of those areas is often too heavy to allow cycling - hence, I assume, the ‘blanket’ ban. Whilst visiting the City (infrequently and over several decades) I haven’t noticed any anti-cycling stance but the roads are small and there are a lot of cars about. In the rush hours the place is often gridlocked (some very long lines of stationary traffic that occasionally crawl forwards) and some form of bypass over the river is needed (the existing multi lane bridge can’t cope with the flow of through traffic wanting to use it).

Hereford boasts at least one decent bike shop and has a delivery by bike service so someone knows how to cycle there.
http://www.herefordpedicabs.com/#intro
There also appear to be several cycling clubs:
https://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/downlo ... reford.pdf

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horizon
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby horizon » 22 Jul 2019, 10:49am

Carlton green wrote: but the roads are small and there are a lot of cars about. In the rush hours the place is often gridlocked (some very long lines of stationary traffic that occasionally crawl forwards) and some form of bypass over the river is needed (the existing multi lane bridge can’t cope with the flow of through traffic wanting to use it).



Carlton green: just to say that I think you meant to write "greater encouragement of cycling". The 1960s are gone, they were proven not to work (Hereford has been wrecked by its appalling ring road) and there isn't the money even if there was the will to destroy more of this city. There is plenty of room in the wide streets of the city centre for regulated cycling. The local residents appear to be in a dazed time-warp, crawling along as you say, choked on their own fumes and blind to the simple but amazing possibilities of a city that could embrace cycling. I wouldn't say the citizens of Hereford should hang their heads in shame as they clearly lack the intelligence to perceive what they have done wrong.
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jul 2019, 11:25am

horizon wrote:
Carlton green wrote: but the roads are small and there are a lot of cars about. In the rush hours the place is often gridlocked (some very long lines of stationary traffic that occasionally crawl forwards) and some form of bypass over the river is needed (the existing multi lane bridge can’t cope with the flow of through traffic wanting to use it).



Carlton green: just to say that I think you meant to write "greater encouragement of cycling". The 1960s are gone, they were proven not to work (Hereford has been wrecked by its appalling ring road) and there isn't the money even if there was the will to destroy more of this city. There is plenty of room in the wide streets of the city centre for regulated cycling. The local residents appear to be in a dazed time-warp, crawling along as you say, choked on their own fumes and blind to the simple but amazing possibilities of a city that could embrace cycling. I wouldn't say the citizens of Hereford should hang their heads in shame as they clearly lack the intelligence to perceive what they have done wrong.

I lived there for a year in 1985. It was a lovely, but somewhat, well, retrospectively-inclined place :wink:

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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Carlton green » 22 Jul 2019, 1:07pm

horizon wrote:
Carlton green wrote: but the roads are small and there are a lot of cars about. In the rush hours the place is often gridlocked (some very long lines of stationary traffic that occasionally crawl forwards) and some form of bypass over the river is needed (the existing multi lane bridge can’t cope with the flow of through traffic wanting to use it).



Carlton green: just to say that I think you meant to write "greater encouragement of cycling". The 1960s are gone, they were proven not to work (Hereford has been wrecked by its appalling ring road) and there isn't the money even if there was the will to destroy more of this city. There is plenty of room in the wide streets of the city centre for regulated cycling. The local residents appear to be in a dazed time-warp, crawling along as you say, choked on their own fumes and blind to the simple but amazing possibilities of a city that could embrace cycling. I wouldn't say the citizens of Hereford should hang their heads in shame as they clearly lack the intelligence to perceive what they have done wrong.


My experience of the place seems to not to match yours. Over the years I’ve found that there’s a lot positive about the place and I could happily enough live there and cope well enough - nowhere is perfect and there are sooo many far worse places to be.

Rural places have rural problems and one of Herefords is through traffic. Herefordshire is relatively sparsely populated so there if often some significant distance between where you are and where you want to be for work, school, shopping, etc. To cover those distances folk resort to driving because they find it far to far to cycle and there is next to no local public transport (buses). Yep, I’d love to encourage lots more cycling in Hereford and all other places too but I’m mindful of the need to understand their difficulties too.

For those that actually live in the City and work there cycling is the answer to many problems, but if a survey of road use in Hereford was done then I believe the results would show that road (car) users there either come from too far away for them to cycle or are just passing through the City. IMHO the best way to get people out of their cars (me included at times) is to give them what they find to be practical solutions to their problems, in general that’s a national problem rather than local but of course local infrastructure impacts too.

I think it worthwhile redrawing attention to the cycle powered delivery service in Hereford. Surely that says a lot positive about attitudes and possibilities in that City.

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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby mattheus » 22 Jul 2019, 1:27pm

Carlton green wrote:For those that actually live in the City and work there cycling is the answer to many problems, but if a survey of road use in Hereford was done then I believe the results would show that road (car) users there either come from too far away for them to cycle or are just passing through the City. IMHO the best way to get people out of their cars (me included at times) is to give them what they find to be practical solutions to their problems, in general that’s a national problem rather than local but of course local infrastructure impacts too.

A "national problem"? Surely cycle trips are short enough to be classed as "local", no?

As to traffic from far away - I don't think those road-users would be impacted by making the centre more bike-friendly (e.g. by simply allowing free bike transit). Infra-structure is useful, but a lot can be done by simply removing restricvtions that have crept in over the years.
(I don't know Hereford, but I've seen many English towns that fit this description perfectly! I've ridden in the rest of Herefordshire, though - a very very nice county.

And I don't have any studies to hand, but I suspect infrastructure (and other bike-friendly planning) makes very little difference to congestion where it is already present due to sheer weight of traffic. Modal shift will help the through traffic too :)

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mjr
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby mjr » 22 Jul 2019, 2:28pm

Carlton green wrote:For those that actually live in the City and work there cycling is the answer to many problems, but if a survey of road use in Hereford was done then I believe the results would show that road (car) users there either come from too far away for them to cycle or are just passing through the City.

Does that belief have any basis in fact? People believe that about King's Lynn too, but the last actual survey I've seen showed that about 75% of the drivers came from inside the bypass, which is a distance of under 3 miles, easily cycleable for most.

Carlton green wrote:IMHO the best way to get people out of their cars (me included at times) is to give them what they find to be practical solutions to their problems, in general that’s a national problem rather than local but of course local infrastructure impacts too.

To the contrary, I think the problem is that all levels of government offer no leadership and panders to what people find to be practical solutions too often - and at the moment, what people find practical is car use because governments have spent 50+ years reshaping the country to facilitate it at the expense of all other transport modes.

Carlton green wrote:I think it worthwhile redrawing attention to the cycle powered delivery service in Hereford. Surely that says a lot positive about attitudes and possibilities in that City.

It says that there's at least one business owner with a positive attitude willing to try it. I see nothing that details what support they get from the local government and agencies whose logo they show. It may even be that it's now such a good idea that such a business can even survive in Hereford and not only the usual cycling cities like Norwich and Cambridge.
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Carlton green
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Carlton green » 22 Jul 2019, 2:30pm

mattheus wrote:
Carlton green wrote:For those that actually live in the City and work there cycling is the answer to many problems, but if a survey of road use in Hereford was done then I believe the results would show that road (car) users there either come from too far away for them to cycle or are just passing through the City. IMHO the best way to get people out of their cars (me included at times) is to give them what they find to be practical solutions to their problems, in general that’s a national problem rather than local but of course local infrastructure impacts too.


A "national problem"? Surely cycle trips are short enough to be classed as "local", no?

As to traffic from far away - I don't think those road-users would be impacted by making the centre more bike-friendly (e.g. by simply allowing free bike transit). Infra-structure is useful, but a lot can be done by simply removing restricvtions that have crept in over the years.
(I don't know Hereford, but I've seen many English towns that fit this description perfectly! I've ridden in the rest of Herefordshire, though - a very very nice county.

And I don't have any studies to hand, but I suspect infrastructure (and other bike-friendly planning) makes very little difference to congestion where it is already present due to sheer weight of traffic. Modal shift will help the through traffic too :)


A national problem in that the bulk of the obstacles to cycling are common at a national level. Such things as the poor attitudes of an element of car drivers, the high cost of electric and utility bikes, an adversarial culture of motor sport and competition on ordinary roads and streets, road building that does not include at the heart of it facilities for pedestrian and cycle use. If cyclists could safely use all the fast, straight and level roads that cars and lorries use instead of having to resort to back roads then we’d all have better journeys. Do you remember the fuel shortages of about 15 years ago when the roads went quiet ‘cause petrol wasn’t available, weren’t the roads quiet then?

If you don’t know Hereford then that does make it difficult for you. It is a small City the centre of which is right next to a river and the suburbs extent over the river. There is effectively only one bridge over the river, it carries a lot of through traffic and runs up against one side of the city centre.

Pedestrianisation of city centres is not uncommon and asking to cycle in those areas is, in my opinion, not helpful. I suggest that it’s best to simply wheel your bike and be glad to have a safe car free area.

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mjr
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby mjr » 22 Jul 2019, 2:46pm

Carlton green wrote:Pedestrianisation of city centres is not uncommon and asking to cycle in those areas is, in my opinion, not helpful. I suggest that it’s best to simply wheel your bike and be glad to have a safe car free area.

Why should I be glad to struggle pushing a loaded bike, being wider, slower and wobblier and therefore much more in everyone else's way for longer? Let me ride slowly as long as I give way or stop for walkers as needed, please.

Far from being "not helpful", it has been national policy for more than 30 years that we should be allowed to cycle in such areas. However, one of the national-level problems IMO has been spineless governments unwilling to make backwards local councils actually implement national policies on this and a wide range of other cycling-friendly measures. From what I've seen and read, I would bet that fewer councils have actually implemented the national policy to allow cycling through pedestrian areas (Norwich, Cambridge, Bristol) than are using PSPOs and similar things to fine cyclists using cycle routes that have been bizarrely routed through cycling bans (Bedford, Mansfield, Peterborough, Westminster, Kensington).
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jul 2019, 3:12pm

We might take a moment to remember this and wonder whether policy might have been influenced as a result?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-h ... r-33236920

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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby fausto copy » 22 Jul 2019, 3:13pm

Please note that Hereford does not have a by-pass or even a proper ring road.
All traffic is funnelled through the city, either on a north-south access or and east-west one (or vice versa obviously).
I've been visiting there for 30 years, during which that time various proposals have been put froward, mostly for an eastern by-pass.
However, a couple of years ago that was knocked on the head and as recently as early this year a decision was made for a western one.
I believe that since the latest local elections, council leadership has changed and proposals are up in the air again. :roll:

My son had now lived there (on the eastern edge) for six years and he cycles two to three times a week, but avoids passing through the city centre, purely because of the density of traffic on the road.
When I visited earlier this year I put a query here on the forum as I wanted to establish the best way of crossing the north-south road and received a few helpful replies. Utilising the new cycle and walking bridge across the River Wye, we skirted south-east and crossed the A465 at traffic lights and came across fine cycle paths heading further west. Returning to the city, we manage to cycle through on smaller back roads, some on the one-way system.

Whenever we visit, I notice a fair number of locals cycling, so it's not a completely cycle barren place.
To be honest, I don't think there's much necessity for cycling through the pedestrianised centre, but again I've seen plenty of people doing so and there has never been a problem doing that, as far as I'm aware.

If a by-pass was to be built, it would possibly take a fair proportion of traffic away from the city centre, but such is its layout, that I cannot see most cyclists benefitting from it.

fausto.

And why Brynpoeth wanted to revisit this topic, Lords knows.

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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby Carlton green » 22 Jul 2019, 3:54pm

mjr wrote:
Carlton green wrote:Pedestrianisation of city centres is not uncommon and asking to cycle in those areas is, in my opinion, not helpful. I suggest that it’s best to simply wheel your bike and be glad to have a safe car free area.


Why should I be glad to struggle pushing a loaded bike, being wider, slower and wobblier and therefore much more in everyone else's way for longer? Let me ride slowly as long as I give way or stop for walkers as needed, please.



I do understand how much harder it can be to walk with and control a loaded bike rather than ride it, you have my sympathies and I’d be delighted to cycle in all pedestrianised areas too. Unfortunately it’s a case of an unthinking and uncaring minority of cyclists (or rather they are people on bikes) getting the rest of us a bad name and ban. Those few who don’t do as you would (let me ride slowly as long as I give way or stop for walkers as needed) and instead proceed with no or insufficient care and regard for other people. Personally I sometimes discretely bend the rules where I can but am mindful to stop and / or dismount at the first signs of any conflict between me and pedestrians. I’m glad for some car free areas and after that anything that makes my onward journey easier is a bonus.

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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby mjr » 22 Jul 2019, 4:13pm

Carlton green wrote:
mjr wrote:
Carlton green wrote:Pedestrianisation of city centres is not uncommon and asking to cycle in those areas is, in my opinion, not helpful. I suggest that it’s best to simply wheel your bike and be glad to have a safe car free area.


Why should I be glad to struggle pushing a loaded bike, being wider, slower and wobblier and therefore much more in everyone else's way for longer? Let me ride slowly as long as I give way or stop for walkers as needed, please.



I do understand how much harder it can be to walk with and control a loaded bike rather than ride it, you have my sympathies and I’d be delighted to cycle in all pedestrianised areas too. Unfortunately it’s a case of an unthinking and uncaring minority of cyclists (or rather they are people on bikes) getting the rest of us a bad name and ban. Those few who don’t do as you would (let me ride slowly as long as I give way or stop for walkers as needed) and instead proceed with no or insufficient care and regard for other people.

1. Those few riding with insufficient care and regard would still be committing an offence even if cycling was permitted.
2. Those few generally also ignore cycling bans, so the ban mainly punishes law-abiding cyclists for something they didn't do.
3. And once again, I reject the principle that I should be banned from cycling somewhere simply because Johnny Mad MTBer does something wrong - after all, no-one is suggesting that we're all banned from driving in Stevenage because of what happened there last week.

Carlton green wrote:Personally I sometimes discretely bend the rules where I can but am mindful to stop and / or dismount at the first signs of any conflict between me and pedestrians. I’m glad for some car free areas and after that anything that makes my onward journey easier is a bonus.

4. So you just ignore the ban and break the law. How lovely it must be to be rich and unafraid of whatever fines they levy!
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Re: Cycling: not Hereford, not anywhere?

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Jul 2019, 5:21pm

fausto copy wrote:..
why Brynpoeth wanted to revisit this topic, Lords knows.

Because I am CTR chief thread rescusitator, number two, because I used to know Herefordshire very well many years ago number one :wink:
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