The problem with segregated cycle routes

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Richard Fairhurst »

TonyR wrote:And as for scaremongering there are already plenty of roads which are already no longer rideable because they now have a facility alongside. I can't believe you've never experience the "get on the cycle path" shout.


Quite honestly, I haven't. I've occasionally been yelled at for taking primary position (in locations with no cycle path), sure, but on the occasions that I've wanted to go for it and have bezzed along the main road rather than taking a shared-use facility or similar, I've never been shouted at. Maybe I've just been lucky.

But on the other hand, I do know a lot of people around here who refuse to cycle because of certain roads that are lethal on a bike, where no parallel facility exists, and where obstacles such as rivers and land ownership mean there is no alternative quiet route. (In these parts, the A4095 from Hanborough to Bladon, and the B4044 from Eynsham to Botley, are the two most notorious examples. You are welcome to find someone who enjoys cycling along either of those roads, but I think it'll take you a while.) So from where I'm sitting, the thing limiting cycling isn't a few people yelling "get on the path", it's the lack of any paths.
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mjr
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by mjr »

TonyR wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't know. You could ask just as easily as me. EDIT: OK, I asked. https://mobile.twitter.com/mjray/status ... 1102344192


And wasn't the answer from the Camden Councillor and Cabinet Member for Regeneration, Transport and Planning illuminating when you asked why it wasn't as wide as the consultation plans showed:

It seems wide enough to me.

That reply was before I mentioned the consultation, but it's vexing. Do you have a link to the consultation document you quoted earlier, please? He's now replied that officers claim it was never meant to be wider, so it'd be good to get him correcting the officers if they've goofed.
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toomsie
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by toomsie »

AlaninWales wrote:Of course according to the anti-segragationists, the rider would have been entirely safe from car drivers if only there had been no segregated cycle path on any part of his route! After all, left hooks (and worse) never happen when cyclists 'share the road' with motorists.

On the subject of which, I'm not sure if this has been on here lately: https://www.justgiving.com/justiceformichael


The lane encourages cyclists to take that route. Even I would have used it as I don't like dual carriageways roads.
TonyR
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by TonyR »

mjr wrote:
TonyR wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't know. You could ask just as easily as me. EDIT: OK, I asked. https://mobile.twitter.com/mjray/status ... 1102344192


And wasn't the answer from the Camden Councillor and Cabinet Member for Regeneration, Transport and Planning illuminating when you asked why it wasn't as wide as the consultation plans showed:

It seems wide enough to me.

That reply was before I mentioned the consultation, but it's vexing. Do you have a link to the consultation document you quoted earlier, please? He's now replied that officers claim it was never meant to be wider, so it'd be good to get him correcting the officers if they've goofed.


http://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/tr ... .en?page=3 and the linked pdf therein (the pdf is almost 30MB for some reason so be aware)

From TCR to Gower St it says "implement a protected westbound cycle lane on the south side of the carriageway by narrowing the existing traffic lane" but from Gower St to Judd St it says "Convert the existing westbound traffic lane to a one-way westbound cycle lane" as does the drawing.
Pete Owens
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Pete Owens »

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
TonyR wrote:And as for scaremongering there are already plenty of roads which are already no longer rideable because they now have a facility alongside. I can't believe you've never experience the "get on the cycle path" shout.


Quite honestly, I haven't. I've occasionally been yelled at for taking primary position (in locations with no cycle path), sure, but on the occasions that I've wanted to go for it and have bezzed along the main road rather than taking a shared-use facility or similar, I've never been shouted at. Maybe I've just been lucky.

In that case you can't often ride on roads with parallel facilities.

This summer the road I use to cycle to work had a cycle path built alongside it - This one:
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/May2015.htm
I have been riding that way now for 30 years without ever having been shouted at. Since it was installed I experience an overt act of agression about once a week - whether that is honking, swearing out of the window, or an ostentatious cutting in - there are probably more punishment passes that I can't be absolutely sure are deliberate. I knew these things occured but I didn't realise it was that bad. There have also been letters calling for cyclists to be prosecuted for riding on the road in the local paper
http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/13498566.Cycle____idiots___/
and a motorist even directly contacted the cycle campaign with photos of offending cyclists taken over the bonnet of his Merc.
But on the other hand, I do know a lot of people around here who refuse to cycle because of certain roads that are lethal on a bike, where no parallel facility exists,

Or rather, you know a lot of people of offer that as an excuse. We know that motorists want us out of their way onto facilities and for the polite ones who don't yell out of their windows it is convenient to convince themselves that these things are intended for our benefit rather than theirs.

Over those 30 years, whenever one of my work collegues would compain about how badly treated was the poor down-trodden motorist (whether it was congestion, or fuel prices, or taxes, or speed limits or road works...) I would point out that all that misery was self imposed and that a practical alternative was available. Every time they would offer the roads-are-too-dangerous excuse - at which point I would whip out a copy of the local cycle map and point out to them a virtually traffic free route. They never took up the suggestion - they would just change their excuse. They couldn't cycle to work because they were taking their kids to school on the way - alternating with they couldn't cycle with their children to school because they were on their way to work. Or it always rains....

If there was any truth whatsoever in the hypothesis that the non-existence of cycle paths was detering people from cycling then we would see significantly greater volumes of cyclists in Stevenage, Milton-Keynes, Telford, Skelmersdale, Livingson and all the other post war new towns where cyclists do not have to use busy roads.
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mjr
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by mjr »

Or just maybe protected space alongside major routes is a necessary but not sufficient condition, Mr Owens, and the new towns have screwed up other things?

I trust you or a fellow rider reply to those idiots in the local press and set the record straight?

But as I've written before, I get a similar rate of "get off the road" abuse whether or not there's a cycle track. And I've used the carriageway on Tavistock Place.
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Pete Owens
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Pete Owens »

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:Not only that, but Hackney - THE borough the segregationists have constantly criticsed due their rare resistance to segregation is THE bourough with the best record in growing cycling


Yes, Hackney - where I have been happily tootling along the lanes and backstreets this morning - has an absolutely admirable reputation for 'filtered permeability', in which bollards and other breaks are used to prevent through motor traffic, while cyclists can pass through unhindered. Camden does it too. Filtered permeability is a Very Good Thing

Or rather since traffic reduction is at the top of the hierarchy of provision these are the most important measures in making Hackney a livable borough and the ones that make its approach more like the post '70s NL than the conventional route-based segregationist approch followed by most UK planners.
and I, together with many other pro-infrastructure cyclists, welcome it wholeheartedly.

We are all pro-infrastructure - including those of us who are sceptical of segregation. Design features at the top of the hierarchy of provision that make cycling safer and more comfortable are still infrastructure.

And while you may personally aprove, you must be aware of the criticism directed at Hackney from the segregationist blogging comunity. For example when Goldsmiths row was blocked off this involved the removal of a narrow segregated cycle track. Then there is even the setting up of a rival cycle campaign - perhaps inspired by the crucifiction scene from the Life of Brian.
But it doesn't get you all the way there. You cannot put bollards in the middle of the A10. It happens that the main roads, where you can't put the bollards, are also the ones with the destinations - the shops, the stations, much of the employment, and so on - and the ones that surmount natural obstacles like the River Thames. People still need to cycle there. And ironically, the effect of filtered permeability is that more motor traffic is driven away from the filtered roads and onto these destination-heavy main roads.

But the approach doesn't just include blocking off side roads - it also involves improving conditions along the main roads. For example moving towards stripping out the giratories that plague much of London and were put in entirely to keep motor traffic moving as fast as possible. A recent example would be the Wick Road scheme that is controversial amongst the segregationists because it involves the return of a very short stretch of shared use pavement to pedestrinans - This is it in its entirety:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5452607,-0.0418065,3a,75y,231.93h,68.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svUoiUr9vcWy-wSHcNrxGJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And if you look at the A10 the approach in Hackney is to see this not solely as a traffic sewer, but as a more civilised place where people meet, shop, catch buses, eat at cafes and so on. Take a look at this streetview image:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Kingsland+High+St,+London/@51.5486661,-0.0753738,3a,75y,18.31h,84.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slMt2kj2kAkYuxozRo8KPPQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DlMt2kj2kAkYuxozRo8KPPQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D96.668449%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x48761c8dc5b8dd89:0xb7cbc22ff0b3aa3a
and compare it with older views. See how space has been realocated to create wider pavements, with the guard railing removed. There are wide traffic lanes with plenty of space for cyclists and motors to get on without conflict and the centre line has been removed. Yes, it is still a busy road, but not one than anyone would consider intimidating. OK from a dogmatic segregationist perspective none of this counts - its a busy road therefore segregation is the only possible solution - but apparently no-one here is a segregationist.
That is why protected infrastructure is needed.

The last place you would want to put segregated infrastucture is in a High Street environment with frequent dangerous side road crossings, conflict with pedestrians at bus stops, kerbside loading activities and so on.
Not on the backstreets, where Hackney's approach generally works, but on the main roads where people still need to ride. It's why TfL has both a Quietways programme and a Cycle Superhighways programme. Camden recognises this and supports segregated infrastructure on busy roads where closure is not an option.

Well the equivalent radial route in Camden would be the A41:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5474638,-0.1801644,3a,75y,327.1h,77.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbmomAmJuyv-uuQMIPWFk5g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
See how they have squeezed as many narrow traffic lanes in as possible - look at all the pedestrian cattle pens. Do you really think that is better than the A10.

Or perhaps look at Camden High Street - wich is not a strategic traffic route:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Camden+High+St,+London+NW1/@51.5383421,-0.142125,3a,75y,338.99h,86.44t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shgGMk4Ng5KZhEhbTP1BAkw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DhgGMk4Ng5KZhEhbTP1BAkw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D141.96243%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x48761ae03692e859:0x986264e82c966591
Here it is part of a multilane giratory system - with southbound traffic routed onto roads that Hackney would be seeking to deter through traffic.

And the roads where Camden puts its much vaunted segregated paths are what would be considered back streets and targets for modal filters in Hackney. I really don't think this sort of thing would be remotly sensible on a busy bus route:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.536558,-0.1339959,3a,75y,301.58h,87.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3heIgvFX6m6ckFBD4BL1vA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Hackney doesn't. It's not Hackney's (very good) record to date in growing cycling that people like me are criticising, it's their refusal to take the next steps being followed by Camden, TfL and others.

Given Hackney's superior record at growing cycling then they should be encouraged to continue with their proven succesful approach - and Camden, TfL and other boroughs should be following their example rather than vice versa.
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by TonyR »

Pete Owens wrote:And if you look at the A10 the approach in Hackney is to see this not solely as a traffic sewer, but as a more civilised place where people meet, shop, catch buses, eat at cafes and so on.


I haven't really looked at the plans but do you know how the building of a segregated CS1 "superhighway" there next year is going to affect that?
Pete Owens
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Pete Owens »

mjr wrote:I trust you or a fellow rider reply to those idiots in the local press and set the record straight?

Indeed so:
http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/13527719.Path_etic/

The comment bellow from "richiepooh" seems to show that at least one person understands the point ... Unlike Patrick Mullee who went on to claim to be a keen cyclist:

http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/13626673.Obey_the_Law/
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by MikeF »

Pete Owens wrote: Unlike Patrick Mullee who went on to claim to be a keen cyclist:

http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/13626673.Obey_the_Law/
I don't understand why the "tin box brigade" are so keen that cyclists obey the law when most of them don't. We have many speed detectors around here and they flash frequently because drivers are exceeding the limit. Motor vehicles frequently jump red lights particularly at light controlled crossings and catch me up when I'm cycling at least 20mph in a 20mph zone. However these drivers complaining about cyclists seem to be totally oblivious (impervious??) to these aspects of law breaking.

If the bike in the picture is Mr Mullee's then he's riding an electric bike. That's fine, but with that you don't have to spend your own energy stopping at starting at crossings and junctions etc. as it's a motor vehicle.
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by pjclinch »

MikeF wrote: don't understand why the "tin box brigade" are so keen that cyclists obey the law when most of them don't.


Because people are generally of the opinion that other people are the problem, whatever the problem may be.

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Pete Owens
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Pete Owens »

MikeF wrote:
Pete Owens wrote: Unlike Patrick Mullee who went on to claim to be a keen cyclist:

http://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk/yoursay/letters/13626673.Obey_the_Law/
I don't understand why the "tin box brigade" are so keen that cyclists obey the law when most of them don't.


Especially when they have to invent non-existent laws to complain about cyclists non-compliance. In this case the offence of riding on a road during rush hour.
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by kwackers »

Pete Owens wrote:Especially when they have to invent non-existent laws to complain about cyclists non-compliance. In this case the offence of riding on a road during rush hour.

A guy in work on Friday was berating a cyclist for cycling too slow. Apparently he wanted to turn left but there was a cyclist passing the junction at "10mph". In his opinion the cyclist should have been aware of the cars "queued" behind him and sped up.
Funnily enough last Wednesday I got told off by a motorist for cycling "too fast", turns out he wanted to overtake to turn left but was unable to pass me (and missed his turning! He was in the right hand lane of a dual carriageway)

So they'll complain regardless. I guess if roughly half complain we're too fast and the other half that we're too slow then we're cycling at the right speed. You can then apply that methodology to all the other complaints.
Pete Owens
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by Pete Owens »

TonyR wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:And if you look at the A10 the approach in Hackney is to see this not solely as a traffic sewer, but as a more civilised place where people meet, shop, catch buses, eat at cafes and so on.


I haven't really looked at the plans but do you know how the building of a segregated CS1 "superhighway" there next year is going to affect that?


That is why it isn't going to go that way. The route will involve extending the modal filtering through De Beavoir - a bit to the west. This is causing controversy among the right wing press due to the effect on house prices (or rather, a particular house price):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/12023864/Corbyns-former-lover-backs-traffic-scheme-which-could-see-her-house-value-soar-above-1million.html
TonyR
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Re: The problem with segregated cycle routes

Post by TonyR »

Pete Owens wrote:That is why it isn't going to go that way. The route will involve extending the modal filtering through De Beavoir - a bit to the west. This is causing controversy among the right wing press due to the effect on house prices (or rather, a particular house price):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/12023864/Corbyns-former-lover-backs-traffic-scheme-which-could-see-her-house-value-soar-above-1million.html


My understanding was that there were several sections of segregated cycle tracks going in.
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