Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

[Flinders]

Here we get about 1 bus an hour to town, sometimes more than an hour's gap, and the buses stop at about 6 in the evening. None on Sundays at all.

There is no timetable with all the buses on, because there is more than one bus company doing routes that go through here, and the local authority is hopeless.
If you wan to get to the other side of town, you have to change, this involves a second full fare making the journey far more expensive than parking, and a fairly long walk that anyone with mobility problems would struggle with, which can also make connections take well over half an hour, and in some cases, over an hour, if you just miss the one that comes out here. Some go from one place in town, some from another, depending on the time, the route beyond us, and the operator. If you miss one, you may have to walk across town again to the next stop our bus goes from.

Driving to where Mr Fliders works takes about 20 mins at the most. By bus (excluding the walk to the stops at either end) can easily take an hour and a half, and none of the buses from here would get him to work at the right time.

[beardy]

If you live in a remote rural environment you tend to choose to shop in bulk. My car trip to go shopping probably involves about three or four times the amount that I can carry on my back, in or to a bus.
So that means you would need to do three or four times as many trips by bus.

[mjr]

There is no timetable with all the buses on, because there is more than one bus company doing routes that go through here, and the local authority is hopeless.

http://www.traveline.info or the Transportr Android app is quite good for that situation. Even clicking stops on Google Maps makes a reasonable stab at next buses.

If you wan to get to the other side of town, you have to change, this involves a second full fare

Ah, a lack of integration. This is where areas that don't have a monopoly, the remnants of a monopoly or a strong integrated transport authority lose out. It should be fixed IMO but there's no prospect of that under Cameron.

If you live in a remote rural environment you tend to choose to shop in bulk. My car trip to go shopping probably involves about three or four times the amount that I can carry on my back, in or to a bus.
So that means you would need to do three or four times as many trips by bus.

I realise they're not always good options, but there are alternatives to carrying stuff on your back: upright trollies (aka granny trollies, a fairly common sight on buses), bike trailers and delivery services all exist. If you really buy in bulk, delivery is free from some shops. I'm lucky to live in a not-quite-remote rural area so I rarely buy more than fits in one set of panniers, but this year's Christmas food shopping was two sets of panniers with a bag on top, done as one of us returned home from work.

[pwa]

Can I challenge one myth? Buying your groceries online and having them delivered to your door does not reduce pollution unless your delivery is by an electrically powered vehicle. You just swap your car for your retailer's van, run on diesel. And the retailer will probably not be delivering to lots of addresses close together. They will be delivering to customers in time slots, and if the Jones family at Number 5 want their groceries at 3 - 5 pm and the Hughes family at Number 11 want theirs at 8 - 10 pm, the retailer may send one van on a route that visits the same street twice. And the shopping delivered at the end of the shift may have been on a very long journey. In practice, online groceries, like taxis, can result in more pollution rather than less.

[mjr]

Still illegal levels of pollution. Ten days before further legal action. http://www.clientearth.org/news/latest- ... ution-3166

[mjr]

Can I challenge one myth? Buying your groceries online and having them delivered to your door does not reduce pollution unless your delivery is by an electrically powered vehicle. You just swap your car for your retailer's van, run on diesel. And the retailer will probably not be delivering to lots of addresses close together. They will be delivering to customers in time slots, and if the Jones family at Number 5 want their groceries at 3 - 5 pm and the Hughes family at Number 11 want theirs at 8 - 10 pm, the retailer may send one van on a route that visits the same street twice. And the shopping delivered at the end of the shift may have been on a very long journey. In practice, online groceries, like taxis, can result in more pollution rather than less.

You can, but I'll challenge your "online groceries can result in more pollution rather than less" legend straight back at you!

It's not certain because of all the variables, but it's probably going to be better than if everyone on that street is doing the classic single-purpose bulk-buy shopping trip. Retailers have more incentive to run the most efficient vehicles on the most efficient routes within the constraints than the Joneses and Hugheses do, as well as more capacity to solve those problems with upgrading planners and vehicles - although trip planning is computationally hard. I also think that commercial drivers and vehicles are held to standards that are at least as high as private vehicles and often higher. If the retailer delivering beardy's bulk buy stops at just one other customer on the way out, that's probably a net win.

Often the online groceries pollute more legend is restated by refuseniks who simply don't want to change for some mystifying reason. Surely there aren't many people who enjoy spending their time off work tramping around an artificially-lit stadium-size store of screaming children, crashing trollies with other overworked people and having automated voices bleat about how your self-scanned trolley of goods is the wrong weight so it all needs checking whenever an assistant is finally available so you can walk past the CCTV security checkpoint desk and between the we-don't-trust-you pillars without being detained?

[simonineaston]

No greater carcinogen than oxygen...

[beardy]

There is no timetable with all the buses on, because there is more than one bus company doing routes that go through here, and the local authority is hopeless.

http://www.traveline.info or the Transportr Android app is quite good for that situation. Even clicking stops on Google Maps makes a reasonable stab at next buses.

If you wan to get to the other side of town, you have to change, this involves a second full fare

Ah, a lack of integration. This is where areas that don't have a monopoly, the remnants of a monopoly or a strong integrated transport authority lose out. It should be fixed IMO but there's no prospect of that under Cameron.

If you live in a remote rural environment you tend to choose to shop in bulk. My car trip to go shopping probably involves about three or four times the amount that I can carry on my back, in or to a bus.
So that means you would need to do three or four times as many trips by bus.

I realise they're not always good options, but there are alternatives to carrying stuff on your back: upright trollies (aka granny trollies, a fairly common sight on buses), bike trailers and delivery services all exist. If you really buy in bulk, delivery is free from some shops. I'm lucky to live in a not-quite-remote rural area so I rarely buy more than fits in one set of panniers, but this year's Christmas food shopping was two sets of panniers with a bag on top, done as one of us returned home from work.

I would still be taking about four times that in the car. I often do a four pannier (plus saddlebag) shopping on the bike but I save all the heavy and really bulky stuff for the car run. A month's supply of beer bottles is quite a load.

[mjr]

I would still be taking about four times that in the car. I often do a four pannier (plus saddlebag) shopping on the bike but I save all the heavy and really bulky stuff for the car run. A month's supply of beer bottles is quite a load.

If it's that important, you should do what I did and move next to the beer warehouse: less than 400m from their door to mine

[pwa]

Can I challenge one myth? Buying your groceries online and having them delivered to your door does not reduce pollution unless your delivery is by an electrically powered vehicle. You just swap your car for your retailer's van, run on diesel. And the retailer will probably not be delivering to lots of addresses close together. They will be delivering to customers in time slots, and if the Jones family at Number 5 want their groceries at 3 - 5 pm and the Hughes family at Number 11 want theirs at 8 - 10 pm, the retailer may send one van on a route that visits the same street twice. And the shopping delivered at the end of the shift may have been on a very long journey. In practice, online groceries, like taxis, can result in more pollution rather than less.

You can, but I'll challenge your "online groceries can result in more pollution rather than less" legend straight back at you!

It's not certain because of all the variables, but it's probably going to be better than if everyone on that street is doing the classic single-purpose bulk-buy shopping trip. Retailers have more incentive to run the most efficient vehicles on the most efficient routes within the constraints than the Joneses and Hugheses do, as well as more capacity to solve those problems with upgrading planners and vehicles - although trip planning is computationally hard. I also think that commercial drivers and vehicles are held to standards that are at least as high as private vehicles and often higher. If the retailer delivering beardy's bulk buy stops at just one other customer on the way out, that's probably a net win.

Often the online groceries pollute more legend is restated by refuseniks who simply don't want to change for some mystifying reason. Surely there aren't many people who enjoy spending their time off work tramping around an artificially-lit stadium-size store of screaming children, crashing trollies with other overworked people and having automated voices bleat about how your self-scanned trolley of goods is the wrong weight so it all needs checking whenever an assistant is finally available so you can walk past the CCTV security checkpoint desk and between the we-don't-trust-you pillars without being detained?

When a Tesco / Sainsburys van leaves the depot it is carrying groceries for maybe 20 customers, not one or two. The van will be on the road for several hours, often going up and down the same bits of road several times as it delivers to customers in different time slots. The groceries for Mr. Hughes may have passed close to his front door several times before his time slot arrives and the driver knocks on his door. The time slot issue prevents an efficient route being used. I've seen a Tesco van go down our cul-de-sac twice in the space of one evening, the same driver delivering to two customers in different time slots. One of those customers would have had their groceries brought to within metres of their front door, then taken away for a few hours and brought back for delivery at the right time slot.

I agree wholeheartedly with your dislike of supermarket shopping, and I understand why tired people want the shopping brought to their front door. But that is a different issue.

[Psamathe]

...
I agree wholeheartedly with your dislike of supermarket shopping, and I understand why tired people want the shopping brought to their front door. But that is a different issue.

Whilst I hate visiting supermarkets I don't trust the supermarkets to select my produce. I eat a lot of veg and when I go to the shop I select the best veg. sometimes the quality is bad so I'll chose something else. For example, once in Tesco I wanted tomatoes and they were abysmal (bits of mould, squashed, etc.) and I could not find any I would pay for; and whilst trying to find an acceptable tomato the Tesco picker came, grabbed the ordered quantity of abysmal tomatoes and went away; I saw a passing suited manager, grabbed him and said "would you buy any of those" and he immediately grabbed a shelf stocker and all the tomatoes were removed from sale! I appreciate they offer a right to refuse what is delivered but how many people open and check what's been delivered whilst the delivery person stands and waits ?

I'd love to use them but fresh stuff is the driving thing behind more frequent visits. Long lasting and bulk stuff I tend to get when I have time for a big (occasional) stock-up and it's the fresh stuff that forces more frequent visits.

Ian

[beardy]

but how many people open and check what's been delivered whilst the delivery person stands and waits ?

My mother used to open at her leisure, email a list of substandard goods back to Tesco and get a refund on them without any hassle or need to return. Though that was back when Terry Leahy was still in charge.

[pwa]

but how many people open and check what's been delivered whilst the delivery person stands and waits ?

My mother used to open at her leisure, email a list of substandard goods back to Tesco and get a refund on them without any hassle or need to return. Though that was back when Terry Leahy was still in charge.

In practice most people are too considerate to make the delivery person wait whilst every item is checked, but I think customers can call and complain about substandard items after delivery and the retailers tend to refund without requiring the goods back. Phoning is a hassle, though. I'm another who likes to select his own stuff, but I can understand others opting for delivered groceries.

[beardy]

but I can understand others opting for delivered groceries.

Yes using rural transport was beyond my mother, she could not climb up the hill from the bus stop without shopping. She made the sensible decision for safety reasons to only use her car when she had to and so her Tesco deliveries saved me a lot of hassle and a long drive.

[irc]

Often the online groceries pollute more legend is restated by refuseniks who simply don't want to change for some mystifying reason. Surely there aren't many people who enjoy spending their time off work tramping around an artificially-lit stadium-size store of screaming children, crashing trollies with other overworked people and having automated voices bleat about how your self-scanned trolley of goods is the wrong weight so it all needs checking whenever an assistant is finally available so you can walk past the CCTV security checkpoint desk and between the we-don't-trust-you pillars without being detained?

You must use different supermarkets than me. Artificially lit? As opposed to my artificially lit house for a good chunk of the year. Screaming children. Can't remember the last time. Anyway I've been a child and a parent, so hearing other children the odd time is not an issue. Crashing trolleys? Nope. Automated checkout? Don't use them and rarely need to queue for more than a minute or two to use a real checkout. Usually no security on duty at my local supermarket and we are trusted enough that unlike some places no coin is needed for a trolley. Why have supermarkets with thousands of items to choose from and try and choose from a screen when you can stroll through and see the goods for real.

If I was time poor I might choose online shopping but at 30 odd hours a week an hour or two isn't the end of the world.

As for the emissions? As often as not I'll stop on the way home, so no extra emissions. So for me online shopping might pollute more.