Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

pwa
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 9 Jul 2018, 7:51am

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5139841 ... 3?hl=en-GB

Yesterday morning, as part of a 9 mile ramble with the Missus, I crossed the M4 on this track / bridge. The building site on the slightly out of date image is now a cluster of homes and the bottom left portion of the plot, nestling up to the bridge and the M4, is occupied by a house. Shockingly close to the never-ending stream of traffic. The tiny garden and the motorway are at about the same height, so there is little more than a thin hedge between home and the hard shoulder. If we have so called Building Standards, why on earth is it deemed okay to put people so close to such a busy road? These are brand new houses! The motorway was built in the 1970s, with fields either side, and now homes are being rammed as close as physically possible to the traffic.

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squeaker
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby squeaker » 9 Jul 2018, 10:13am

pwa wrote:https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5139841,-3.4099492,227a,35y,270h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB

On a lighter note, see attached: this is how Google decided to show this link - that's an interesting motorway :lol: :shock:
Image Attachments
M4.jpg
"42"

reohn2
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby reohn2 » 9 Jul 2018, 11:02am

pwa wrote:https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5139841,-3.4099492,227a,35y,270h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB

Yesterday morning, as part of a 9 mile ramble with the Missus, I crossed the M4 on this track / bridge. The building site on the slightly out of date image is now a cluster of homes and the bottom left portion of the plot, nestling up to the bridge and the M4, is occupied by a house. Shockingly close to the never-ending stream of traffic. The tiny garden and the motorway are at about the same height, so there is little more than a thin hedge between home and the hard shoulder. If we have so called Building Standards, why on earth is it deemed okay to put people so close to such a busy road? These are brand new houses! The motorway was built in the 1970s, with fields either side, and now homes are being rammed as close as physically possible to the traffic.

The simple answer is that the country in the form of building regs cares more for profit than it does for people's illhealth caused by air pollution.
I can show you examples of the same all over the country.
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Jul 2018, 11:10am

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mjr
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby mjr » 9 Jul 2018, 11:34am

pwa wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/17/uk-taken-to-europes-highest-court-over-air-pollution wrote:UK taken to Europe's highest court over air pollution
European court of justice can impose multimillion euro fines if the UK and five other countries do not address the problem

Did you notice which other countries were named? France, Germany. The big economic powers. And I bet some of those not named are only in the clear because they don't measure properly.

So? The UK is named despite not measuring properly and engaging in games such as not installing a full range of monitors at some locations (my nearest one measures only NOx not PM), reinstating roadside parking as a barrier between the traffic and the pollution monitors and changing lane systems to move the longer queues away from the monitors.
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pwa
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 9 Jul 2018, 8:21pm

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
Psamathe wrote:

Did you notice which other countries were named? France, Germany. The big economic powers. And I bet some of those not named are only in the clear because they don't measure properly.

So? The UK is named despite not measuring properly and engaging in games such as not installing a full range of monitors at some locations (my nearest one measures only NOx not PM), reinstating roadside parking as a barrier between the traffic and the pollution monitors and changing lane systems to move the longer queues away from the monitors.

It is a while back, but I think the only point I was making was that the problem we have seems to be a by-product of having a large economy, and countries like France and Germany have similar issues. So we are not all that exceptional. Not a reason to stand still, though.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby mercalia » 13 Jul 2018, 10:34am

May be this is part of the answer?
The filter creating bubbles of clean air in London
clean air.JPG
Pollution Free Zones


https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/11/health/airlabs-clean-air-filter/index.html

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jul 2018, 10:52am

pwa wrote:It is a while back, but I think the only point I was making was that the problem we have seems to be a by-product of having a large economy, and countries like France and Germany have similar issues. So we are not all that exceptional. Not a reason to stand still, though.

It's not a by-product. It is a direct product. It may not be a desired product, but it is a product. And it is a product because the very economy is oriented around the extraction and comsumption of natural resources, especially petroleum.
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pwa
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 13 Jul 2018, 11:53am

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:It is a while back, but I think the only point I was making was that the problem we have seems to be a by-product of having a large economy, and countries like France and Germany have similar issues. So we are not all that exceptional. Not a reason to stand still, though.

It's not a by-product. It is a direct product. It may not be a desired product, but it is a product. And it is a product because the very economy is oriented around the extraction and comsumption of natural resources, especially petroleum.

Semantics. A "by-product" is a product, but not the main intended product.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby Vorpal » 13 Jul 2018, 6:06pm

pwa wrote:Semantics. A "by-product" is a product, but not the main intended product.

Is there a product other than pollution?
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pwa
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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 14 Jul 2018, 3:04pm

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:Semantics. A "by-product" is a product, but not the main intended product.

Is there a product other than pollution?

If we are talking about transport related pollution, the intended product is transportation, and the unintended and unwanted by-products include pollution. The process of moving a vehicle and its load is the product we want, but it comes with by-products we dislike. Or are you thinking that a product can only be stuff?

Widening it out a bit, pollution has, up to now, gone hand in hand with economic development. Look at China now, or the UK in the late 1900s. All major economies have a problem with it at the moment, not just the UK.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pete75 » 14 Jul 2018, 8:41pm

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:Semantics. A "by-product" is a product, but not the main intended product.

Is there a product other than pollution?

If we are talking about transport related pollution, the intended product is transportation, and the unintended and unwanted by-products include pollution. The process of moving a vehicle and its load is the product we want, but it comes with by-products we dislike. Or are you thinking that a product can only be stuff?

Widening it out a bit, pollution has, up to now, gone hand in hand with economic development. Look at China now, or the UK in the late 1900s. All major economies have a problem with it at the moment, not just the UK.


If a vehicle is operated by someone who knows it pollutes and, despite that knowledge, has made a free choice to use the thing the pollution is not unintended.
.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 14 Jul 2018, 8:50pm

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:Is there a product other than pollution?

If we are talking about transport related pollution, the intended product is transportation, and the unintended and unwanted by-products include pollution. The process of moving a vehicle and its load is the product we want, but it comes with by-products we dislike. Or are you thinking that a product can only be stuff?

Widening it out a bit, pollution has, up to now, gone hand in hand with economic development. Look at China now, or the UK in the late 1900s. All major economies have a problem with it at the moment, not just the UK.


If a vehicle is operated by someone who knows it pollutes and, despite that knowledge, has made a free choice to use the thing the pollution is not unintended.
.

Unless someone is using a polluting vehicle primarily to pollute, rather than to get about, the pollution is a by-product. That is the only point that was being made. Hardly worth talking about really and I can't remember how we got onto it.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pete75 » 15 Jul 2018, 11:03am

pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:If we are talking about transport related pollution, the intended product is transportation, and the unintended and unwanted by-products include pollution. The process of moving a vehicle and its load is the product we want, but it comes with by-products we dislike. Or are you thinking that a product can only be stuff?

Widening it out a bit, pollution has, up to now, gone hand in hand with economic development. Look at China now, or the UK in the late 1900s. All major economies have a problem with it at the moment, not just the UK.


If a vehicle is operated by someone who knows it pollutes and, despite that knowledge, has made a free choice to use the thing the pollution is not unintended.
.

Unless someone is using a polluting vehicle primarily to pollute, rather than to get about, the pollution is a by-product. That is the only point that was being made. Hardly worth talking about really and I can't remember how we got onto it.


No it was not the only point you were making. You also stated pollution is unintended when clearly it is not. Whenever someone makes a choice to use a vehicle they know is polluting then that pollution is intended. If they didn't intend to pollute they wouldn't use a polluting machine.

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Re: Every breath we take: the lifelong impact of air pollution

Postby pwa » 16 Jul 2018, 6:34am

pete75 wrote:
pwa wrote:
pete75 wrote:
If a vehicle is operated by someone who knows it pollutes and, despite that knowledge, has made a free choice to use the thing the pollution is not unintended.
.

Unless someone is using a polluting vehicle primarily to pollute, rather than to get about, the pollution is a by-product. That is the only point that was being made. Hardly worth talking about really and I can't remember how we got onto it.


No it was not the only point you were making. You also stated pollution is unintended when clearly it is not. Whenever someone makes a choice to use a vehicle they know is polluting then that pollution is intended. If they didn't intend to pollute they wouldn't use a polluting machine.


This tangental discussion was only about the small and academic point of what "by-product" means. Pollution is a by-product of driving a normal car because the user, while knowing about the pollution, does not see it as their motivation for using that vehicle. The pollution is not the product they are aiming for, so it is a by-product. That is not saying it is insignificant or that the car user is excused.