The German take on the cycle super highway...

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pjclinch
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby pjclinch » 8 Mar 2016, 7:49am

It just may be the case that like a lot a lot of major roads the actual implementation changes as one nears or moves away zones of heavy use, rather than make one blanket standard for the whole thing even if there's an order of magnitude more use in some places than others.

We don't know for sure as yet, especially from the articles we've seen, but perhaps a wafffeeere theeen benefit of doubt might be appropriate before writing off the whole thing as inadequate on the basis of a couple of lines of press?

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2016, 8:29am

Pete Owens wrote:.....However, this is being hyped as a "bicycle autobahn"....

By who?
The press,the linked article appears to be on a US website.
The press aren't the can't of people for hyping up a story are they?

The proposed volume of traffic - 50000 cars worth (presumably to justify the 180 million euro price tag) would be very busy and would indeed involve single file riding with no opportunities to overtake. Tony R is quite right to point out that it is more "country lane" than "autobahn".

The 50k bicycle use is surely an estimate and if it realised those numbers wouldn't,as with cars on roads, be for the entire length in a continuous stream,more like bike entering/exiting at varying points along it with maximum possible use at peak rushour I would've thought.

Indeed - 4m is perfectly adequate for a lightly used recreational path

You're going to be dreaming a dream of perfection until you're tripping over you beard if you think there'll ever be a perfect cycling system,not when a good proportion,if not the majority of the road infrastructure is 6 to 8m wide for two way motor traffic.
I don't claim to be cycling infrastructure aficionado just a life long cyclist with a lot of UK crap infrastructure experience,and some continental infrastructure experience,and I know a good deal when I see one.That,if laid properly and maintained is a good deal by anyone's stretch of the imagination,unless they'll settle for nothing less than total and immediate utopia.
As I said up thread YVMV,mine is one of,when can UK cyclists be afforded such provision inbetween and around towns with roads teeming with aggressive drivers due to the overloading of our roads.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Vorpal » 8 Mar 2016, 9:18am

Most places that I have cycled, the Netherlands included, 4 m is quite wide, even for a two-way path. It's not the widest I've come across. However, between cities, I doubt that there will be enough bicycle traffic to warrant a wider facility. In the cities, I hope that that width suits the usage. I have used busy two way paths that wide, and, while it hasn't been the fastest cycling I've ever done, it was absolutely fine. Certainly, where it's busy, it's not possible to go 15 mph, but I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect to; anymore than it would be reasonable to expect to go 130 km/hour through a big city on the Autobahn. And autobahn is a misnomer. It should be Fahrradbahn :P

In any case, the article says
Bicycling wrote:The new type of bike routes are around 13 feet wide, have overtaking lanes and usually cross roads via overpasses and underpasses.


Another article http://road.cc/content/news/173907-germ ... n%E2%80%99 seems to say that the first 5 km is 4 m wide. It seems that some of it is still concept (and maybe unplanned in details and funding).

4 metres, plus extra lanes for overtaking where high traffic volume is expected? Or an absolute width of 4m? I doubt it's the latter.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 8 Mar 2016, 10:08am

Pete Owens wrote:
mjr wrote:... when the dynamic envelope of a bicycle at typical speed is normally taken as 1m (it gets wider if you go slower).

And that is figure even quoted in the rubbish british standards.

Add to it a minimum clearance of 0.5m either side of a cyclists (again from the UK standard) and you get a minimum requirement for a 2 way cycle-path of 3.5m - which the described path would meet assuming it is unsegregated shared use rather than

The 0.5m clearances on the outsides are allowed to go off-tarmac as long as there isn't a vertical feature (wall or whatever) closer, so the British minimum requirement for 1+1 passing in LTN 1/12 is actually 3m. Working out the calculations means that 2+1 requires 4m and 2+2 5.5m so that's what I'd call a bicycle-autobahn (or Radschnellweg? Isn't a Radbahn a velodrome track?) but I only know one place that has many tracks that width: West Norfolk :lol:
Image

Even Milton Keynes tends to max out at 5m IIRC and its retrofitted long-distance/higher-speed tracks are often 4m:
Image
Indeed, so long as the whole width is available to cyclists, rather than subdivided with 2m for pedestrians and 2m for cyclists then a 4m wide path is sufficient for a lightly used recreational cycle path. [...]

That looks like it's written by someone who rarely rides 4m wide cycle tracks.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby beardy » 8 Mar 2016, 10:14am

The path in that bottom picture certainly doesnt look like 4 metres to me.
Photographs, like videos, make it hard to really judge distances.

Plenty of the roads around here are not 4 metres wide.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 8 Mar 2016, 10:29am

beardy wrote:The path in that bottom picture certainly doesnt look like 4 metres to me.
Photographs, like videos, make it hard to really judge distances.

It doesn't help when the left edge is buried under fallen leaves. There are surprisingly few pictures of plain sections of retrofitted Redways on cyclestreets or geograph. People prefer to take photos of interesting stuff like the sculptures or bridges - mad, eh? ;)
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Audax67 » 8 Mar 2016, 10:30am

Looks good to me: underpasses, flyovers, priority for bikes over cars at intersections, lighting and winter maintenance. I wouldn't quibble over a metre or so, especially given the alternatives. The Ruhr is heavily populated and heavily travelled.

Here's the home page for the project: http://www.rs1.ruhr/
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2016, 10:35am

Mjr
The top photo in you previous post is about the width of a lot(majority)of our local roads,the bottom photo looks to be a maximum of 3m,though could be 2.5m to my eye,though it's difficult to estimate without a reference to go off.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 8 Mar 2016, 10:57am

reohn2 wrote:The top photo in you previous post is about the width of a lot(majority)of our local roads,the bottom photo looks to be a maximum of 3m,though could be 2.5m to my eye,though it's difficult to estimate without a reference to go off.

The top track is maintained as basically a local road, but gets maintenance less often because the only person with a right to take a motor vehicle along it is the owner of the adjacent fields so it just doesn't get the wear - there's another local tarmac track which was built on the cheap decades ago (before I moved here 20ish years ago), mostly 3m but constantly varying width to avoid trees, which we can't believe is still basically usable because no-one can remember more than pothole patching. I suspect we underestimate how much damage motorists do to surfaces.

I may have picked a dud narrower-than-usual section of the V8 long-distance redway for the bottom photo. It's also unusual in that it's varying slope and curve quite a bit, but I'm not going to go take my own photos soon. I've just found http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2881513 but that looks slightly under-width too.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Steady rider » 8 Mar 2016, 11:19am

Just wondering about the UK, where would be the best options for a 40 to 60km or 20 to 40 mile route, connecting several locations?

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby reohn2 » 8 Mar 2016, 11:19am

Mjr
I'm getting a little confused as to your point,we seem to have strayed away from the point of a 4m German cyclway,to the badly design UK equivalent :?

FWIW,going back to your top photo.The chap in the yellow top,to his left to the grass verge is IMO about 3.5m.I'll leave you to decide is that's an accurate estimate and if with another 0.5m to his right is a safe width for four cyclists,two in each direction to pass each other safely.
If not we'll have to agree to differ.
I still maintain that 4m is and adequate width for heavy cycle traffic,by responsible users.There's no legislating for nutters though.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby TonyR » 8 Mar 2016, 11:58am

reohn2 wrote:You're going to be dreaming a dream of perfection until you're tripping over you beard if you think there'll ever be a perfect cycling system


That's the reason we have so much crap infrastructure in the UK - the belief that something is better than nothing. We need to start saying no to crap infrastructure being foisted on us by well meaning but incompetent traffic engineers.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby TonyR » 8 Mar 2016, 12:00pm

reohn2 wrote:I still maintain that 4m is and adequate width for heavy cycle traffic,by responsible users.There's no legislating for nutters though.


Have you tried using the new Cycle Superhighways in London? They are 4m wide in their wide bits and are not adequate for bidirectional traffic flow unless you are happy to ride single file at the speed of the slowest.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 8 Mar 2016, 12:36pm

Steady rider wrote:Just wondering about the UK, where would be the best options for a 40 to 60km or 20 to 40 mile route, connecting several locations?

Sheffield-Rotherham-Barnsley-Wakefield-Leeds, Stockport-Manchester-Salford-Bolton-Preston, Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool and Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton seem fairly obvious.

There are also some that I think are interesting because they link smaller places with a more cycling-friendly city at one end and the alternatives are fairly poor, such as Peterborough-Oundle-Corby-Kettering-Wellingborough-Northampton which is 46 miles (straightened slightly so not actually through the middles of the passed towns), but £50-60 2.5-3.5h by train or 2h 40min by bus end-to-end, so a bike need not be much slower on a good track... and if you were only doing part of it, you'd "lose" proportionately less time and could leave whenever you were ready.

My personal favourite is Lynn-Swaffham-Dereham-Norwich, another 42 mile Beeching-axed railway route, but the buses aren't quite bad enough to make similar claims.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby pjclinch » 8 Mar 2016, 1:52pm

TonyR wrote:
Have you tried using the new Cycle Superhighways in London? They are 4m wide in their wide bits and are not adequate for bidirectional traffic flow unless you are happy to ride single file at the speed of the slowest.


No, I haven't, but despite dedicated cycle infrastructure having no effect on cyclist numbers TfL are reporting a great deal of increase on those routes, so I guess quite a few folk have and seem to be okay with it.

I'm not ecstatic about riding the same speed as everyone else, but much like urban driving where I have little choice I'm not too fussed as long as it's going places. Riding in NL I've been forced to conform to a reasonable pace that got me where I was going in a predictable manner. Part of the traffic preventing my from hurrying there was a lot of school kids you don't get to see riding here.

If it were just me, or people like me, I'd be fine with the roads. But it isn't.

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