The German take on the cycle super highway...

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pjclinch
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby pjclinch » 9 Mar 2016, 7:46am

TonyR wrote:But also see the response of another London cyclist to the tweet:

@TfL dates times please don't fiddle the data not from one sunny spring day or a cycling Sunday event sorry but u hav history


Maybe I'm being unreasonable in thinking that a single tweet from "another London cyclist" doesn't constitute damning proof of book-cooking, but OTOH maybe I'm not. As you have something of a track record in cherry-picking yourself these days I think you'll need to do a bit better.

TonyR wrote:
The 50,000 cars is couched in terms of "could", but even if we assume that's "will" we're spread over 100 km, so that's 500 cars/km per day. If you can't get 500 bikes/km/day down a 4m track then you're really not trying very hard.


Of course, silly me. I forgot that of course traffic will be evenly distributed along its length and throughout the day.


Though you were happy to assume apropos of a pretty vague article that it would be concentrated in space and time to the point that the rather vaguely couched design would surely be inadequate... So that's all right then!

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 9 Mar 2016, 8:06am

Pete Owens wrote:I think what you are thinking of is this:
http://www.transpenninetrail.org.uk/
So spectacularly successful that 15 years on the M62 is virtually free of traffic in the morning rush hour.

No, I'm not thinking of that. If it were adequate then the routes along it wouldn't still be the best options for building something decent, would they?
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Steady rider » 9 Mar 2016, 8:55am

The transpennine routes in parts are good and in other parts or branch routes quite poor.

The routes around Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds could be improved on sections. Sustrans routes probably need a regular inspection from an outside body, CTC perhaps or DfT or TRL, to report how they could be improved.

Today it is raining and I know if I used one route it would entail a gated section, full of water/mud, horses of course dig up the surfaces in parts. Sustran's income is about £40 million per year, so regular inspections are needed to ensure good value for money. Tighter controls over bridleways requirements when used as part of the cycle network is needed it seems.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Vorpal » 9 Mar 2016, 9:00am

Maybe we could install one London to Harwich port, save the poor Dutch cyclists from getting lost and connect Brentwood, Chelmsford, Witham, Kelvedon, Colchester and the other towns and villages along the route.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby Steady rider » 9 Mar 2016, 9:26am

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map?lat= ... on=England

looks to be a need for a direct cycling route.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 9 Mar 2016, 9:37am

Much as I'd like decent Harwich- London and Folkestone-London routes, they're both nearer 70 miles than 40.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2016, 9:47am

Steady rider wrote:The transpennine routes in parts are good and in other parts or branch routes quite poor.

The routes around Manchester, Sheffield, Leeds could be improved on sections. Sustrans routes probably need a regular inspection from an outside body, CTC perhaps or DfT or TRL, to report how they could be improved.

Today it is raining and I know if I used one route it would entail a gated section, full of water/mud, horses of course dig up the surfaces in parts. Sustran's income is about £40 million per year, so regular inspections are needed to ensure good value for money. Tighter controls over bridleways requirements when used as part of the cycle network is needed it seems.


The TPT is and has only ever been a recreational route for fair weather cyclists or the more hardy enthusiast.
It could never ever be described or used as a utility long distance cycleway and is for 99% of the total a stranger to tarmac or maintenance.
I've on a number of occasion stopped to chat with despairing Dutch,Germans,Spanish and French cyclotourists,usually around the Lymm,Dunham,Warrington areas,heading for Liverpool to see the Beatles/Merseysound city,who've,after initial pleasantries admitted it's a poor excuse and didn't expect to find it quite so bad.
I've often thought what they thought when they got to the west waste lands toward Runcorn,Speake,etc. :?
UK cycle provision is 60years behind most of their countries,and it's treatment of cyclist's and cycling a disgrace for a so called civilised country.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby beardy » 9 Mar 2016, 10:01am

Those of us seeking to do a long distance on a cycle are are a very small minority.
The most beneficial place for routes is relatively close major towns and cities.
Preferably with a fairly flat route (typically along a river).

Like Bristol and Bath or Nottingham and Derby but they are already pushing the range to the limit.
More suitable places will now be within an existing conurbation and just internal routes within London, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester's etc "greater" areas. So that all of the route is of use rather than just to get from one town or city to another.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2016, 10:16am

beardy wrote:Those of us seeking to do a long distance on a cycle are are a very small minority.
The most beneficial place for routes is relatively close major towns and cities.
Preferably with a fairly flat route (typically along a river).

Like Bristol and Bath or Nottingham and Derby but they are already pushing the range to the limit.
More suitable places will now be within an existing conurbation and just internal routes within London, Glasgow, Birmingham, Manchester's etc "greater" areas. So that all of the route is of use rather than just to get from one town or city to another.


I've posted on here many times how UK's many rivers and canals could be a great leisure and utility resource for cycling,but it needs serious investment and not the poor examples I see and ride regularly.
That said,'serious investment' is only a small fraction of the amount of money ploughed into road projects that successive governments have spent in an effort to slake an insatiable thirst for motor travel over short sub 5mile distances.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby mjr » 9 Mar 2016, 10:53am

beardy wrote:Those of us seeking to do a long distance on a cycle are are a very small minority.
The most beneficial place for routes is relatively close major towns and cities.
Preferably with a fairly flat route (typically along a river).

Yes, but we must remember that these routes would also improve connections between intermediate settlements. You wouldn't have to ride the whole thing in one go and probably few would. Even just looking at the towns on my earlier suggestions, some possible gaps are:

Sheffield - 5 miles - Rotherham - 15 miles - Barnsley - 10 miles - Wakefield - 6 miles - Leeds edge - 4 miles - centre

Stockport - 5 miles - Manchester - 5 miles - Salford - 10 miles - Bolton - 22 miles (ok, big gap, but there are other places along it) Preston

(Manchester-Warrington-Liverpool I find hard to say where to mention or not.)

Coventry - 12 miles - Solihull - 9 miles - Birmingham - 9 miles Dudley - 5 miles - Wolverhampton

Peterborough centre - 5 miles - edge - 9 miles - Oundle turn - 7 miles - possible Corby turn - 4 miles - Kettering turn - 9 miles - Wellingborough turn - 7 miles - Northampton edge - 5 miles - centre

However, I do wonder if more of these high-profile big-announcement-then-compromise-to-death schemes are the best use of funding for cycling. It feels like troubleshooting and linking already-built schemes might be better, but I guess that's not as sexy for many politicians.
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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby TonyR » 9 Mar 2016, 1:27pm

pjclinch wrote:
TonyR wrote:But also see the response of another London cyclist to the tweet:

@TfL dates times please don't fiddle the data not from one sunny spring day or a cycling Sunday event sorry but u hav history


Maybe I'm being unreasonable in thinking that a single tweet from "another London cyclist" doesn't constitute damning proof of book-cooking, but OTOH maybe I'm not. As you have something of a track record in cherry-picking yourself these days I think you'll need to do a bit better.


Maybe you are being unreasonable in trying to talk knowledgeably about infrastructure that is 500 miles away from you and that you have never visited or used. I would be very reluctant to gainsay you on Dundee cycling infrastructure because I know a lot less about it than you as a local would. It seems you do not have the same reluctance in the reverse direction.

Quite a lot more tweets on there now questioning TfL's figures and pointing to very low usage as did the Guardian article. And to illustrate the issue of timing being everything, here are the automatic counter flow figures for the TLRN

TLRN cycle usage.jpg


There are big changes in flows from one month to the next and from one year to the next with nothing changing on the ground

And here's a picture of those 3,394 cyclists using it at peak time

Image

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby TonyR » 9 Mar 2016, 1:35pm

reohn2 wrote:I've posted on here many times how UK's many rivers and canals could be a great leisure and utility resource for cycling,but it needs serious investment and not the poor examples I see and ride regularly.
That said,'serious investment' is only a small fraction of the amount of money ploughed into road projects that successive governments have spent in an effort to slake an insatiable thirst for motor travel over short sub 5mile distances.


Sustrans gets £40m p.a to produce crap like the Transpennine Trail. That sounds like the sort of serious investment you are talking about.

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby pjclinch » 9 Mar 2016, 1:42pm

TonyR wrote:Maybe you are being unreasonable in trying to talk knowledgeably about infrastructure that is 500 miles away from you and that you have never visited or used. I would be very reluctant to gainsay you on Dundee cycling infrastructure because I know a lot less about it than you as a local would. It seems you do not have the same reluctance in the reverse direction.


After reading that it did take me quite some time to stop laughing before I could compose this reply.

Coming from someone who is writing off a route in another country altogether that hasn't been built yet and he has very sketchy details of, this is one of the better examples of pot/kettle/black I've seen for some time.

Can we take it you'll remember what you've just said the next time you lecture us on infrastructure the other side of the North Sea that you don't appear to have used in person?

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby TonyR » 9 Mar 2016, 1:49pm

pjclinch wrote:Can we take it you'll remember what you've just said the next time you lecture us on infrastructure the other side of the North Sea that you don't appear to have used in person?


I am happy to hear your personal report of your experience cycling the new Cycle Autobahn. Grass houses and stowing thrones?

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Re: The German take on the cycle super highway...

Postby pjclinch » 9 Mar 2016, 1:52pm

TonyR wrote:
pjclinch wrote:Can we take it you'll remember what you've just said the next time you lecture us on infrastructure the other side of the North Sea that you don't appear to have used in person?


I am happy to hear your personal report of your experience cycling the new Cycle Autobahn. Grass houses and stowing thrones?


What have I predicted that you think may be unfair?
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