New Thames Crossing

[gaz]

"Option C" was the only choice of crossing location presented in the consultation. The consultation listed various "choices" for the routes of the approach roads, all within a narrow area. It is therefore hard to distinguish a campaign against "Option C" from a campaign against a new crossing at any location.

Whilst it is fair to say that some of the opposition has NIMBYesque motivations, there is also an element of opposition to any new crossing, which feels the existing capacity issues need to be solved through a change of transport policy rather than building yet more infrastructure.

[[XAP]Bob]

The new scheme will indeed contribute to their KPI as it does give opportunities to construct new crossings where the crossing approach roads sever footpaths, bridleways and roads.

Excellent, more opportunities to create crossings...

[Philip Benstead]

If it's like the tunnels under the Rhine at Rotterdam where the cyclists use the service tunnel then it's fine.
Otherwise there's still the Tilbury ferry, if it's kept open.

Rd does not run on Sundays and can close on other days I found to my cost

[gaz]

Statutory Consultation phase opened last week: https://highwaysengland.citizenspace.co ... sultation/

HE are now openly calling it a Motorway and it's now six lanes through the tunnel instead of the original four. Apparently there will be mitigation measures for NMUs but there's no detail on what those might be, perhaps some form of "shuttle service" like the Dartford Crossing's 4x4s with a bike rack on the back.

On the Kent side the existing eight lanes of A2/M2 become eight lanes of M2 plus four "feeder" lanes of A2.

NCN177 gets about 0.75km longer as it negotiates the LTC/A2/M2 junction.

I've nothing family friendly to say about the £6bn scheme.

[ANTONISH]

I've just received a pamphlet entitled "lower Thames crossing consultation"
At the bottom of the cover it says "have your say - it's your road, your tunnel, your journey"

It also states " Our conversations with residents, community groups, businesses and other organisations have played (note the past tense) a vital role in developing our proposals"

It's pretty obvious this "Public consultation" is just the last box needing to be ticked.

[gaz]

I popped into a consultation event this evening. There is little to be learnt that is not already in the consultation materials.

There had been some thought of creating a cycle route through the tunnels beneath the road deck. Concerns over mixing strava speed freaks with families in a confined space and how to access/evacuate in an emergency means there will be no provision for NMUs in the tunnels.

There will also be no shuttle service. Highways England believe all existing NMU routes lead to the Gravesend-Tilbury ferry. The ferry runs 05:40 to 19:00 Mon-Sat only excluding public holidays and that will do just fine .

[1066enthalpies1939]

I popped into a consultation event this evening. There is little to be learnt that is not already in the consultation materials.

There had been some thought of creating a cycle route through the tunnels beneath the road deck. Concerns over mixing strava speed freaks with families in a confined space and how to access/evacuate in an emergency means there will be no provision for NMUs in the tunnels.

There will also be no shuttle service. Highways England believe all existing NMU routes lead to the Gravesend-Tilbury ferry. The ferry runs 05:40 to 19:00 Mon-Sat only excluding public holidays and that will do just fine .

Will there be public transport going though the tunnel?

[gaz]

Will there be public transport going though the tunnel?

I'd imagine that is a commercial decision for the bus operators. There is at least one bus service across the existing Dartford Crossing.

[Jon Lucas]

There will also be no shuttle service. Highways England believe all existing NMU routes lead to the Gravesend-Tilbury ferry. The ferry runs 05:40 to 19:00 Mon-Sat only excluding public holidays and that will do just fine .

Just out of interest, why does the ferry not run on Sundays or Bank Holidays? I would have thought it would be well used for leisure journeys on those days, so that it would make commercial sense to operate then.

I assume the ferry used to operate 7 days a week when it was considered a necessary part of the road infrastructure (a long time ago now!).

[ANTONISH]

There will also be no shuttle service. Highways England believe all existing NMU routes lead to the Gravesend-Tilbury ferry. The ferry runs 05:40 to 19:00 Mon-Sat only excluding public holidays and that will do just fine .

Just out of interest, why does the ferry not run on Sundays or Bank Holidays? I would have thought it would be well used for leisure journeys on those days, so that it would make commercial sense to operate then.

I assume the ferry used to operate 7 days a week when it was considered a necessary part of the road infrastructure (a long time ago now!).

In my youth it used to operate as a car ferry and it was seven days a week and quite late into the evening.
Very useful if you wanted to cross the river and cycle in another county.
After the first Dartford tunnel opened it reverted to passenger only (it still takes motorbikes).
Highways England have no interest in cycle provision and this scheme can only make things worse.

[mjr]

There had been some thought of creating a cycle route through the tunnels beneath the road deck. Concerns over mixing strava speed freaks with families in a confined space and how to access/evacuate in an emergency means there will be no provision for NMUs in the tunnels.

The Clyde tunnels are a more confined space, being under a 2 lane road deck whereas this is proposed as 3 lane. Does it have these problems in practice? Do cycling tunnels in other countries?

It sounds like Highways England is justifying ducking its duty to serve cycling and walking again, like how it argued it didn't need to provide cycleways alongside the doomed build-your-way-out-of-congestion A14 Huntingdon bypass bypass because no-one currently rides across those green fields.

[gaz]

Just out of interest, why does the ferry not run on Sundays or Bank Holidays? I would have thought it would be well used for leisure journeys on those days, so that it would make commercial sense to operate then.

I assume the ferry used to operate 7 days a week when it was considered a necessary part of the road infrastructure (a long time ago now!).

IIRC it was still a seven day a week foot passenger/cycle/moped service as little as 30 years ago. The local authorities both north and south of the river invest in (subsidise) the service.

I have heard tale of an ancient charter, royal warrant or some such that requires that a crossing is provided between Gravesend and Tilbury but that might be a load of nonsense.

The Clyde tunnels are a more confined space, being under a 2 lane road deck whereas this is proposed as 3 lane. Does it have these problems in practice? Do cycling tunnels in other countries?

I obviously need to do more research.

Clyde tunnels are approx 0.75km, LTC will be 4km. Anyone know any European examples of comparable length?

[mjr]

Clyde tunnels are approx 0.75km, LTC will be 4km. Anyone know any European examples of comparable length?

There are none yet. The longest cycle tunnel at the moment seems to be Koprášsky tunel https://cycle.travel/map/journey/82299 but that's ex railway. It seems like where the Dutch build river tunnels this long, either 7 day passenger ferries are assured or buses have bike trailers.

[gaz]

There are none yet.

Indeed, I've started diggin around. Closest in length is Snoqualmie Tunnel (USA) comes in at 3.6km and is also a former rail tunnel. A proposed 3km cycle tunnel which will double as a service tunnel for the adjacent rail line between Fyllingsdalen and Minde. Nothing of similar design.

HE have an opportunity to create some world leading cycle infrastructure.

It's not going to happen is it.

[mjr]

HE have an opportunity to create some world leading cycle infrastructure.

It's not going to happen is it.

Probably not, but maybe a 7 day ferry or a shuttle. Don't ask will get nothing, though. You never know, HE may surprise us.