Podium Girls

[Freddie]

One grant that helps women into areas specifically and historically dominated by men doesn't debunk anything. In fact you rather helpfully make my point. Why are women typically more likely to be nurses? Is it because we expect women to be nurses and not engineers? Why is that do you think, is one more womanly than the other?

I think women, typically, want to be nurses and men, typically, do not. This is not something enforced by society, but a case of disposition. Men and women are different, you can't expect them to want to pursue the same things

The fact that we have to mandate to get young women into areas that have historically been male dominated just shows that we are still a male dominated society. If we had equality we wouldn't need to do this. Statistics at a population level would show a reasonably even split across all jobs. That women are herded into motherly roles at the moment, which you seem to think is OK, just shows we still have a gender bias in what we expect women to do.

Show me one place in the world that everyone is equally represented (black/white, male/female), whether a profession or a pastime. Is this forum 50/50 men and women? If not, then there must be some discriminate on this forum against women, says you. OK, then why isn't doll collecting split evenly 50/50 between men and women, the women who collect does must discriminate against the men, right? Jam making and baking isn't dominated by women too, are women driving men out or is it only ever men who do the driving out?

Here is a video for you. If you (or anyone else) want the wage gap, gender, even race disparities (with regards to representation) explained, watch the video by noted black economist Thomas Sowell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y021WAd ... cEconomics

[Bicycler]

Why are women typically more likely to be nurses? Is it because we expect women to be nurses and not engineers? Why is that do you think, is one more womanly than the other?

The fact that we have to mandate to get young women into areas that have historically been male dominated just shows that we are still a male dominated society

So nursing is dominated by women because of gender stereotypes whereas engineering is dominated by men because of the oppression of women? The latter needs to be corrected by means of incentives. You remain silent about the former. I think Freddie is being a bit OTT, but I will agree with the suggestion that any attempt to redefine gender roles ought to be a two pronged policy seeking to tackle imbalances, not merely trying to open traditionally male dominated fields to women.

[Freddie]

I think Freddie is being a bit OTT, but I will agree with the suggestion that any attempt to redefine gender roles ought to be a two pronged policy seeking to tackle imbalances, not merely trying to open traditionally male dominated fields to women.

How so? What if imbalances are nothing but case of disinterest/interest in a profession or hobby by the sexes? Occam's razor is useful here. To suggest that something is bad about these imbalances, first you must prove that people aren't doing these things just because that's what they want to do.

For example, if women felt compelled to be nurses, they wouldn't stick at the job very long. Most nurses stay nurses for a very long time, if not all their working life. I think, on the contrary, women are now being pursuaded (by way of short term special dispensation) to pursue professions where, for a number, their heart is not in it (STEM fields, for instance).

[honesty]

Frankly, reading the last post, I give up. I'm going for a ride.

[Spinners]

I don't watch every bike race on TV (basically the Spring Classics and the TdF) but the podium girls are bonnie-looking lasses and represent their sponsors well.

Not exactly podium girls but the first time I went to see the TdF we were staying at the same hotel as the Coca Cola girls. What a smashing bunch of lovely girls.

[Bicycler]

Freddie, my point was simply that attempting to sort out gender differences by focusing upon one half of the population was inherently flawed. How do you redefine the concept of feminine and womanly roles without consideration for masculine and manly roles? They are inter-related concepts. I wasn't necessarily calling for the intervention, just saying that any intervention ought to be conducted with some thought for both genders. This is where I think you did have a bit of a point earlier. The big thrust behind a lot of gender-based policy is from feminists and feminist based theory which is necessarily focussed upon women. There is thus little incentive to consider areas where men are under-represented or not well catered for. As you correctly identify boys results have now dipped much lower than girls at school to an extent that would be deemed a priority policy issue if the roles were reversed.

That said, I can't write off the gender imbalances in employment as happily as you do. Women may indeed prefer to be nurses and men may indeed prefer to be engineers, but I think that putting that down entirely to biological rather than environmental factors is making rather too many assumptions.

[roubaixtuesday]

Some reading for those who feel that sexism is no longer a problem. 

In general:
http://everydaysexism.com/

On the podium:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/100-t ... dium-girls

Really shockingly, to me at least, on a bike:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... use-female

Have a look.  Report back if you still feel there's no issue

Also, if  on reflection you think the existence of podium girls helps or hinders us tackling the problems that women still appear to be faced with. 

[Freddie]

Women may indeed prefer to be nurses and men may indeed prefer to be engineers, but I think that putting that down entirely to biological rather than environmental factors is making rather too many assumptions.

Perhaps, but when young women are now being given special grants to enter STEM fields and a better chance of employment upon graduation than their male counterparts and still they are not taking up these subjects to anywhere near a 50/50 split, then suggesting that discrimination against women in this field is the prime factor seems much more outlandish than my suggesting that men and women tend to have specific natures and interests on average.

I don't think that is what you are suggesting by the way, though it is what others typically suggest. What else are you suggesting, you didn't specify...

[Freddie]

Some reading for those who feel that sexism is no longer a problem. 

In general:
http://everydaysexism.com/

It is mostly moaning from western women about the most trivial of things. Nonsense such as this on the front page:

"Elizabeth

17th May 2016
I work at a theatre, and while not debilitating, whenever we need to remove seats from the auditorium for disabled audience members, my boss always says that we need the boys to do it, ignoring that the girls are just as able bodied and willing to carry seats a few feet to a cupboard"

Sounds like chivalry to me. I forgot that chivalry is sexist in today's world!

and

Sunday

17th May 2016
I have had two men at work in the last week ( one the owner and one coworker) refer to my ability to get stuff done and care about my job as motherly. I believe they meant it complimentary but would they say that to a man in my position. I am a supervisor soit is my job to make sure things in my department get done.

Then you are hit by, in contrast, what non-western women face:

Somali girl

17th May 2016
My sister was the extroverted popular girl, I saw what happened to her. In Somalia they love yelling “Gowan!” which means “Naked” if I show my legs or belly. They don’t seem to notice they sexualised my entire skin. Somalis whom my parents knew caught my sister wearing a skirt, when she came home there was a major uproar.

Once in my Law class, we spoke about a case where a man trespassed his ex-wife’s house and raped her. Our teacher asked our class to put their hands up if we think he should be arrested. All of us put our hands up. Or we thought so. One guy yelled out that he doesn’t think the man should be arrested, we didn’t realise he didn’t put his hands up. “Why?” the teacher asks. The boy, who is a radical Pakistani Muslim says “because men are superior” In context of Islam, yes men are considered superior in that religion.

and


"Somali

17th May 2016
My auntie and uncle started a family in Somalia. About 8 kids. But she didn’t even know that her husband has citizenship in England, where he now has a second wife.

She didn’t like the idea of him having another wife but he exclaimed that he has the fundamental rights to have 4 wives.

She then managed to move to England, with 6 kids leaving the other two behind with the dad (not sure why) and then he followed her.

He followed her to England where he beat and raped her when he said he just wants to see the kids. I saw her swollen and bruised face, something I have never seen before. The woman is uneducated, all she was taught was the Quran. The man keeps coming over and got her pregnant again – my dad tells me I need to mind my business but I really think she needs to stop having this man see her"

Certainly not getting to move chairs about and being called motherly is the equal of what this Somali girl seems to face.

Unfortunately, modern day feminism can't tackle non-western women's issues, as it may involve critiquing Islam and non-western people/cultures and that might be considered racist, so women in Somali will just have to rub along as best they can for the time being...

[Bicycler]

Women may indeed prefer to be nurses and men may indeed prefer to be engineers, but I think that putting that down entirely to biological rather than environmental factors is making rather too many assumptions.

Perhaps, but when young women are now being given special grants to enter STEM fields and a better chance of employment upon graduation than their male counterparts and still they are not taking up these subjects to anywhere near a 50/50 split, then suggesting that discrimination against women in this field is the prime factor seems much more outlandish than my suggesting that men and women tend to have specific natures and interests on average.

Not discrimination but possibly the environment in which people are brought up. If you are brought up Catholic there's a fair chance you'll be a Catholic adult despite a free choice of religion and no biological predisposition towards Catholicism. If children are brought up in an environment where girls are expected to do girl things and boys are expected to do boy things this might influence what they want to do for a career in a world where women become nurses and men become engineers. I'm not saying there isn't a biological aspect but it's very difficult to separate it from the envioronmental aspects.

[roubaixtuesday]

Freddie,

you seem to be suggesting that because there is a spectrum of seriousness in sexism, the less serious stuff is ok. I disagree.

In fact, I think normalising everyday sexism makes more serious offences more likely. Perhaps you disagree.

Here's a reference for you in a newspaper:
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/top ... 1400853600

Finally, your posts are littered with unsubstantiated assertions. Please provide references, it will much improve your credibility if you let us know the source of your facts.

[honesty]

Women may indeed prefer to be nurses and men may indeed prefer to be engineers, but I think that putting that down entirely to biological rather than environmental factors is making rather too many assumptions.

Perhaps, but when young women are now being given special grants to enter STEM fields and a better chance of employment upon graduation than their male counterparts and still they are not taking up these subjects to anywhere near a 50/50 split, then suggesting that discrimination against women in this field is the prime factor seems much more outlandish than my suggesting that men and women tend to have specific natures and interests on average.

I don't think that is what you are suggesting by the way, though it is what others typically suggest. What else are you suggesting, you didn't specify...

I'm back from my ride.

2
A few points.
1. Grants etc. Show me where women can apply for grants or sponsorship to get into a giro d'Italia team.
2. When the number of women starts to displace men in the majority of jobs then we can look at men only government grants.
3. Assigning womanly and men roles to specific job types is exactly what I am saying is wrong, well done for highlighting this.
4. Just because sone one is forced into a specific role because of societies view on what is acceptable for them to do doesn't mean they won't enjoy it.
5. You can't use the argument that some roles are traditionally women's therefore go women in these jobs and at the same time dismiss this argument when put forward as a point against male domination in the job market as being historic.

[roubaixtuesday]

I'm back from my ride.

I think I'd recommend going for another one, to be honest . I'm off for a glass of wine.

[Freddie]

Freddie,

you seem to be suggesting that because there is a spectrum of seriousness in sexism, the less serious stuff is ok. I disagree.

I am suggesting that much of this stuff isn't sexism, but consideration for other human beings. The consideration that men show women is different and often times much greater than they show their fellow men. I don't suppose you'd consider it sexist that men are typically encouraged not to hit women; every feminist I have ever met has argued that men should not hit women, something with which I agree, even in the face of rising violence in the opposite direction.

Consideration regarding heavy lifting and calling someone "motherly" is not sexist and a woman who thinks these things are such has had her mind warped by a pernicious ideology. If women were encouraged to consider a man's perspective as frequently as men are asked to consider women, then things might be better for all concerned.

If women really got equality, in that men treated them exactly how they treated other men, most would consider it bullying, because they are completely oblivious to the many ways in which men, mostly subconsciously, treat women better in general.

The exception to this rule, the catcaller or the lecherous man, is always held up as the rule, rather than the exception with feminism.

Finally, your posts are littered with unsubstantiated assertions. Please provide references, it will much improve your credibility if you let us know the source of your facts.

You'll have to dispute something first. Your first post was to a website that could be just as accurately named everyday anecdotes, so this is hardly scholarly work of the most rigorous standard.

[Bicycler]

Freddie, you seem to be suggesting that because there is a spectrum of seriousness in sexism, the less serious stuff is ok. I disagree

I think that Everyday Sexism presents a particular feminist narrative which sees sexism where it sometimes doesn't exist. It also fails to consider how gender roles and expectations affect the male experience. There is thus a tendency to look upon any comment or policy based upon a woman's gender, presented in isolation, as sexism and thus evidence of continued oppression (which I'm not disputing exists but I don't think it can be our default reading into every comment).

The two examples Freddie chose are interesting. The woman told not to do the lifting was seen as an example of women being perceived as incapable, it could equally be seen as men being expected to do lifting that women are not expected to do. It's a good example of the inter-relationship between gender roles and why we cannot just focus upon one in isolation. The other woman was referred to as motherly which was seen as sexist because it was a feminine characteristic. Had a man been described using a masculine characteristic it would have been unremarkable.