Podium Girls

Trail Beater

Re: Podium Girls

Postby Trail Beater » 27 May 2016, 5:23am

jan19 wrote:Postby Trail Beater » 26 May 2016, 9:44pm

I would not suggest that it does not happen jan19,just I have never saw it.
So for people to say they have saw it countless times is baffling.To me that is.
I get the feeling you would have to go out readily looking for it.Which I never have.


No I'm just commuting to and from work! Minding my own business. To say I'm "going out readily looking for it" is frankly, ridiculous. Why on earth would I go out looking for abuse?

Has it never occurred to you that you don't get abuse because you're male?

Jan


I was actually talking about people seeing it countless times,as if they are anticipating it's going to happen.
But ok,I can see how that was written.
Still,you must live in a very dodgy area if you are subject to sexist abuse on a regular basis jan19
Is it sexual innuendous remarks ?
Or simply "get out the way ya ....." ?
All I have ever saw is courtesy to women riders.I must be lucky I guess.
I have saw fellow males being verbally abused,but it seems to be the "get out the way" abuse.
As I said,I don't doubt it happens,but if it is a regular thing round your way or the people who see it countless times,then I'm surprised it has not been reported.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jan19 » 27 May 2016, 6:45am

I guess I'm using "abuse" in a very wide sense - some is just the "come on love, pedal, pedal" type. Some of its silly stuff - " hey, love, did you know you have a flat tyre?".

I'd guess a third either refers to my appearance, or tells me to "get off the road ( with an expletive before the word road.)

No, this isn't a dodgy area. There's just a lot of cars (my commute is along a busy A road) so although 99.9% are absolutely fine, that still leaves plenty of cars where (usually the passenger) thinks it would be fun to shout at the cyclist as they go past.

Jan

Trail Beater

Re: Podium Girls

Postby Trail Beater » 27 May 2016, 7:18am

jan19 wrote:I guess I'm using "abuse" in a very wide sense - some is just the "come on love, pedal, pedal" type. Some of its silly stuff - " hey, love, did you know you have a flat tyre?".

I'd guess a third either refers to my appearance, or tells me to "get off the road ( with an expletive before the word road.)

No, this isn't a dodgy area. There's just a lot of cars (my commute is along a busy A road) so although 99.9% are absolutely fine, that still leaves plenty of cars where (usually the passenger) thinks it would be fun to shout at the cyclist as they go past.

Jan


Right,I've got you now.
You feel belittled by men who assume they know better because you are a woman.
Hence all the calling you "love" stuff.
Even I have to admit,that's a bit "On The Buses"

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jan19 » 27 May 2016, 8:16am

Right,I've got you now.
You feel belittled by men who assume they know better because you are a woman.
Hence all the calling you "love" stuff.
Even I have to admit,that's a bit "On The Buses
"

Oh no, I don't feel belittled - maybe I used a couple of bad examples. Although the silly jokey remarks do often contain the word "love".

Its the whole shouting out at me as they go past - I just object to men thinking its fine to do that. So I'm calling it "abuse" when what's actually said isn't offensive in itself.

Some of it is actually abusive though.

Jan

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jayd » 27 May 2016, 8:19am

meic wrote:
honesty wrote:
Freddie wrote:
You have done two things consistently, be ill mannered and wilfully misrepresent my arguments. Neither are valid forms of debate.


This made me giggle. Coming from where it comes from.

Basically the problem is people like Freddie here who are so far into their own world view they cannot understand that their actions/viewpoints as the very root of the problem. You are never going to win against them as they cannot see their view as wrong.

Personally I find the problem to be those who cry "sexist" at anybody who doesnt agree with them.

I probably agree with Vorpal on 95% of the issues and seem capable of debating about the bits we dont agree about. Others have got used to just being able to come out with any thing they like and if anybody disagrees they just keep shouting "sexist, sexist". It is time that a lot of what has been left unchallenged actually does get challenged, even in the face of the name calling.
Freddie may never change his views but he does at least appear to listen to what the other side says.
Which is at least a greater step than I see from some others, who have already decided their view is right.


Having read through some of "Freddie's" comments I'm struggling to see how you can reach this conclusion. He is listening with his hands clamped firmly over his ears.
Neither have I read into Bez's tone that his is the correct point of view.

if anybody disagrees they just keep shouting "sexist, sexist


Do you have examples of this simplistic assertion?

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jayd » 27 May 2016, 8:26am

I was watching some Giro D'italia earlier this week, when the camera cut to a row of podium girls lined up for the camera. I then heard a somewhat embarrassed Carlton Kirby say, "Ah, looks like we have a return to the 1980's. How about we get on with some cycling?"

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby pjclinch » 27 May 2016, 8:29am

Trail Beater wrote:Still,you must live in a very dodgy area if you are subject to sexist abuse on a regular basis


Get reading and the extent of "everyday sexism" starts to show. It's quite an eye opener, and not in a good way (and that's just reading about it, doubtless not as bad as experiencing it). Dodgy areas for sexism extend over the whole country appears to be the actuality.

Various folk have pointed out things where women aren't on the bad end of the deal as some sort of evidence this isn't so. And while there are situations where women get the better deal overall it's a bit like saying that clearly there's no racism problem in the US as if there were Obama wouldn't be president.

People who are quite reasonably saying they don't think they're misogynists should note that being a misogynist and not realising how pervasive sexism is aren't the same thing. I am pretty much certain I don't understand the full extent of either sexism or racism in 2016 Britain, not because I don't care or I'm a closet KKK loon, but because I'm a middle-class skilled professional white male. That doesn't make me bad, but it makes me fortunate on many levels when it comes to how I'm treated.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 8:31am

Do you have examples of this simplistic assertion?
Have I fallen foul of not being aware of the latest PC terminology?
There is an astonishing amount of misogynistic bilge on this thread

Here is one line and that was just one explicit line in the middle of a lot of "dogwhistle" comments.
People have also learned from what happened on previous threads.

If that isnt calling people sexist then it is near enough in meaning for somebody not fully up to date with the fashionable terminology.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 8:37am

but because I'm a middle-class skilled professional white male. That doesn't make me bad, but it makes me fortunate on many levels when it comes to how I'm treated.


The thing is that middle-class skilled professional white females are the second most fortunate group in the country. The main thrust of the anti-sexist agenda is trying to get those two groups to parity at a the same level way above the rest.

The same statistics that show a man is more likely to be a doctor than a woman is, will also show that the daughter of a doctor stands a far better chance than the son of a brickie.
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Freddie » 27 May 2016, 8:46am

jayd wrote:Having read through some of "Freddie's" comments I'm struggling to see how you can reach this conclusion. He is listening with his hands clamped firmly over his ears.
So, now you are a mind reader, I am "listening with my hands over my ears". If somebody disagrees with you or the general consensus of the thread, they must be not listening. Is this your position?

I have been far less unnecessarily personal than some in this thread and have only ever asked for good reasoning and evidence for stopping women from doing something that harms nobody in any physical sense. I am just met with vague assertions that "it is wrong" and "it is the current year, it is not 1960's/1970's/1980's any more". These are not fully formed, well evidenced arguments. When I ask for the evidence, it is "all out there, just Google it", as if I should critique my position on others behalf. Either that or we get anecdotes from people's own lives, as if that will suffice as strong evidence.

I'm sorry, but stopping a form of gainful, safe employment for women (which is what the petition at the beginning of this thread is about) is not something which should be done lightly.

Vorpal is not suggesting as much and I will get back to her last post shortly, but the majority of people in this thread seem to think this employment opportunity should cease to exist, through banning such things. Well, this will impact the women doing these jobs, has anyone for banning considered them or, because of the type of employment they pursue, are they are beneath consideration? If you want to limit people from doing things, then I think it is necessary for you to make a very strong, well evidenced argument to why any harm is greater than the gain to women.

As you are struggling to understand my viewpoint, AlaninWales summed it up very nicely in the second post on page 14. If you are still confused after reading that, then I don't think it can be made any plainer.

jayd wrote:Do you have examples of this simplistic assertion?
Perhaps you'll be presenting the evidence that I'm "listening with his hands clamped firmly over his ears.", is that not just as simplistic an assertion?

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby pjclinch » 27 May 2016, 9:03am

meic wrote:
but because I'm a middle-class skilled professional white male. That doesn't make me bad, but it makes me fortunate on many levels when it comes to how I'm treated.


The thing is that middle-class skilled professional white females are the second most fortunate group in the country. The main thrust of the anti-sexist agenda is trying to get those two groups to parity at a the same level way above the rest.

The same statistics that show a man is more likely to be a doctor than a woman is, will also show that the daughter of a doctor stands a far better chance than the son of a brickie.


That skilled professional white females may do better than other-race unskilled males misses a couple of glaring points. First, other-race unskilled families have daughters as much as they have sons, and second, the skilled professional white female will still be subject to denigrating abuse and poor treatment for no reason other than she is a "she".

Sexism is a problem across all levels, and needs to be addressed on all levels. The "main thrust" of combatting sexism is to combat sexism because at any level it's a bad thing.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 May 2016, 9:14am

Thing I get about sexism is how easy it is to brush aside the "small stuff" as nothing to bother about. The way some men, particularly from certain regions, use terms like "love" or "pet" towards complete strangers who are women is just one example. I've rarely heard a male equivalent reach as much prevalence.

This is brushed off by most as low level but often grates. It's too familiar and uses a word with possessive connotations that's not used for men. Rare examples of similar phrasing that's used for both genders include "me duck" in the Stoke/Staffordshire area IIRC. That's used towards men and women plus it's more harmless. Not possessive you see.

Whilst all "low level stuff" it's a good bellwether for the state of men's views and attitudes towards women. The society's attitude towards women as a whole. I personally feel women can be complicit in the sexist status quo as well as men.

I'm sure it's been mentioned earlier in this thread but it all doesn't have to be like this. There's some very equal societies around, Scandinavian countries are oft quoted. I've been to Sweden many times and felt at home. Worth visiting. Gothenburg is beautiful IMHO but that's off topic.

It's my contact with Danes and the exploration of their society through Danish contacts. Speaking to a Dane for any length of time you can't help but notice differences to their whole attitude to this and so much. It's been commented about their attitudes to cycling, but it's gender, childcare and other social issues where it's just ingrained and highly positive. I prefer to compare my attitudes against Danish attitudes when it comes to sexism and gender based issues. Although I guess I've only met one section of their society and a highly educated and successful part of it. Perhaps there's a more English type back in Denmark viewing podium girls as perfectly normal and acceptable.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jayd » 27 May 2016, 9:22am

Coincidently, here's Victoria Pendleton in today's Guardian commenting on the corrosive culture in British Cycling. She has been outspoken in her support for Jess Varnish who was advised to "go off and have a baby".

link https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/26/victoria-pendleton-olympics-shane-sutton

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby reohn2 » 27 May 2016, 9:23am

Are there podium men for the women's races?

Come to think of it,are there any women's races :roll: ........
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby roeboy » 27 May 2016, 9:27am

Just a reminder folks the petition that started this debate about life, the world and the Universe is here and despite the vigorous debate has only attracted one signature since being originally posted here https://www.change.org/p/christian-prudhomme-i-d-like-to-remove-the-podium-girls-from-cycling-events
Last edited by roeboy on 27 May 2016, 9:27am, edited 1 time in total.