Podium Girls

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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 9:27am

pjclinch wrote:
meic wrote:
but because I'm a middle-class skilled professional white male. That doesn't make me bad, but it makes me fortunate on many levels when it comes to how I'm treated.


The thing is that middle-class skilled professional white females are the second most fortunate group in the country. The main thrust of the anti-sexist agenda is trying to get those two groups to parity at a the same level way above the rest.

The same statistics that show a man is more likely to be a doctor than a woman is, will also show that the daughter of a doctor stands a far better chance than the son of a brickie.


That skilled professional white females may do better than other-race unskilled males misses a couple of glaring points. First, other-race unskilled families have daughters as much as they have sons, and second, the skilled professional white female will still be subject to denigrating abuse and poor treatment for no reason other than she is a "she".

Sexism is a problem across all levels, and needs to be addressed on all levels. The "main thrust" of combatting sexism is to combat sexism because at any level it's a bad thing.

Pete.

It doesnt miss any glaring points. The difference between their sons v their daughters making it to doctor, is negligible because neither of them are going to do it.
The abuse suffered by white middle class females is so low level that many dont even know it is happening to them, unless somebody points it out to them.

As the saying goes "man, I wish I had their problems."

When reading the articles in the papers (lets point at the Guardian) it is all about the women who are right at the top of society and earnings levels. The main thrust of combating sexism isnt about combating sexism at all, it is about redistributing wealth at the top.

The minimum wage is the same for men and women.
Yma o Hyd

Trail Beater

Re: Podium Girls

Postby Trail Beater » 27 May 2016, 9:38am

roeboy wrote:Just a reminder folks the petition that started this debate about life, the world and the Universe is here and despite the vigorous debate has only attracted one signature since being originally posted here https://www.change.org/p/christian-prudhomme-i-d-like-to-remove-the-podium-girls-from-cycling-events


Not being pedantic,but does that not tell you the importance of these things in everyday life ?

jayd
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby jayd » 27 May 2016, 9:39am

Meic,

if anybody disagrees they just keep shouting "sexist, sexist


I just wondered if you see it as a societal issue with your use of "they", and asked you for some examples. The evidence so far amounts to "someone being wrong on the internet".

Freddie
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Freddie » 27 May 2016, 9:40am

pjclinch wrote:
Trail Beater wrote:Still,you must live in a very dodgy area if you are subject to sexist abuse on a regular basis


Get reading and the extent of "everyday sexism" starts to show.
Reading what? The everyday sexism website, where not being asked to lift chairs is "sexist"? If that is sexist, then anything can be sexist, it just needs a woman "experiencing it" or a "highly attuned" onlooker to say so. The problem with this is where does sexism begin and chivalry end?

The woman on the everyday sexism website would like to lift chairs, therefore men do the lifting on her behalf (seeing it as a chivalry), are in fact "sexist" and bad. The same woman, one imagines, would not like to physically defend herself from a man in a fight, here she is lucky because this isn't "sexist", but still "chivalrous". It is completely unequal treatment, but seeing as very few women are offended by not having to defend themselves physically from men, it is "not sexist". That is how arbitrary the definition of sexism is. If a woman or a highly attuned onlooker feels it is sexism, then it is. Sexism can even occur against women without them knowing it, feeling bad about it or receiving any negative effects from it, because a "highly attuned" onlooker has filled her in on the fact that "sexism is everywhere, and she has just been a victim". That is why, as you assert, sexism is everywhere, as it rests entirely on the whims of the recipients (or a third party's) feelings and not any objective standard.

pjclinch wrote:It's quite an eye opener, and not in a good way (and that's just reading about it, doubtless not as bad as experiencing it). Dodgy areas for sexism extend over the whole country appears to be the actuality.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but if you are of the mindset that sexism is entirely subjective, then I suppose sexism can never be cured and will always be lurking round every corner.

The best we can do is fight structural sexism. There is no place in society, the workplace or anywhere a business interacts with an individual that a woman can be treated less than a man purely because she is a woman, without grounds for some kind of legal complaint. You cannot stop people thinking sexist things (if we can ever get an objective definition), even if you punish free speech. We do already punish free speech in this country, but still sexist views exist, inside the heads of people.

You can no more defeat sexism (or racism, for that matter) than you can defeat dragons, but we can say, with some objectivity, that the UK is one of the least sexist countries in the world; has no institutional sexism, that couldn't be countered in a court of law and that men here treat women far more fairly than around 95% of the globe.

Hence why I assert that women are now the recipients of special treatment, like grants purely for women, because ALL structural sexism against women is illegal, therefore structural sexism in favour of women can start in earnest, as is happening. This, of course, is sexism against men. Mainly against young men, whose reward for being the most considerate generation when it comes to women, is that they must defer their success and opportunities because they are male and if you are male, you can be discriminated against. It is positive discrimination though, so this is not a problem. I'm sure this falls into the chivalrous, not sexist bracket.

pjclinch wrote:Various folk have pointed out things where women aren't on the bad end of the deal as some sort of evidence this isn't so.
Well, of course it is evidence, what else could it be? You made the assertion somewhere much further up thread that women were second class citizens. Again, without a shred of evidence to back it up, but your assertions stand alone or other peoples evidence isn't worth anything, it seems.

pjclinch wrote:People who are quite reasonably saying they don't think they're misogynists should note that being a misogynist and not realising how pervasive sexism is aren't the same thing. I am pretty much certain I don't understand the full extent of either sexism or racism in 2016 Britain, not because I don't care or I'm a closet KKK loon, but because I'm a middle-class skilled professional white male. That doesn't make me bad, but it makes me fortunate on many levels when it comes to how I'm treated.

Pete.
About the worst thing you could be, as a young person in Britain today, is a white, working class male. Minimal university participation (less than their female class bracket peers), no special treatment with respect to sex, no special grants, no organisations/charities who care about you (no feminist or ethnic movement to support you). But white men in past had it easy, so what young white men, especially working class ones face today is no matter. It is not like they are individuals and should be treated as such.

I suppose that is the main thrust of this entire thread, individualism vs collectivism. Individual responsibility and rights vs collective guilt by association.
Last edited by Freddie on 27 May 2016, 9:51am, edited 4 times in total.

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pjclinch
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby pjclinch » 27 May 2016, 9:41am

meic wrote:It doesnt miss any glaring points. The difference between their sons v their daughters making it to doctor, is negligible because neither of them are going to do it.


It's unlikely, but whatever the high point of their career trajectory may be, it will on average be lower for the daughters and they will be discriminated against because they are daughters.

meic wrote:The abuse suffered by white middle class females is so low level that many dont even know it is happening to them, unless somebody points it out to them.


ITYM "is so pervasive that they tend to take it in their stride having come to think of it as normal".

It doesn't happen to white middle class men.

meic wrote:As the saying goes "man, I wish I had their problems."


Says the man that doesn't have them... Because they're doing on the whole just fine doesn't make it okay to treat them worse than their male counterparts. But that's what's happening.

meic wrote:When reading the articles in the papers (lets point at the Guardian) it is all about the women who are right at the top of society and earnings levels.


Deary, deary me. One of the Graun's Big Things of recent times has been FGM. This is not an issue "about the women who are right at the top of society". Sexism is pervasive across society, and if anything quite a lot worse at the poorer end.

meic wrote:The minimum wage is the same for men and women.


Well, that's solved everything. Hurrah!
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...

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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 9:55am

jayd wrote:Meic,

if anybody disagrees they just keep shouting "sexist, sexist


I just wondered if you see it as a societal issue with your use of "they", and asked you for some examples. The evidence so far amounts to "someone being wrong on the internet".


I dont understand what you are suggesting here.

My use of they was as a pronoun standing in for "the people who shout sexist in order to silence critics"
I had no other image in my mind of a group of society, it is that one behaviour that groups them.

I do not ever take issue with an individual on the forum (unless they attack me personally), I argue the point. So you will not find me posting a quote with the name of the poster attached, just the quote itself. In fact I am very poor at noticing who said what, as that isnt of the slightest interest to me. It is just what was said.
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 May 2016, 10:03am

Gainful employment? Perhaps stripping to your bikinis on a cold presentation platform to present your body and a trophy/medal/winners champagne bottle is gainful employment. They get paid it's a job.

But what a job it is! It's about the female body, it must be or why have most of it uncovered? Of course the female form is beautiful so what is wrong with showing it you might argue. Then to prevent sexism comments you might say male form is beautiful and if the women want it then men could do that job in women's events. That doesn't get past the question as to whether the appreciation of the human form should happen in any circumstances. Do you believe it appropriate to see naked people in all areas of modern life because the human form is beautiful?

Simple question, if the human form is beautiful and it is positive to appreciate it, is there ever a time or place or activity at which nakedness or near nakedness is inappropriate?

If you completely believe that there isn't such a time, place or activity that the human body doesn't enhance then I can understand how you can justify podium girls. Just need to rule out the girls only bit at each event and recruit solely on the beauty of the naked body applying for the job. Equal opportunities should mean that these events should have men doing it surely? Imagine the Giro winner having a male and a female chest in his face on the podium. Equality in action. If that ever happens I'll complain about that being inappropriate too.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Freddie » 27 May 2016, 10:09am

You can quote a person and argue what they actually said or you can argue phantoms and assert things on their behalf (the whole nakedness argument, which is yours alone).

If you want to argue honestly, you quote what somebody actually said.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 10:12am

pjclinch wrote:
meic wrote:It doesnt miss any glaring points. The difference between their sons v their daughters making it to doctor, is negligible because neither of them are going to do it.


It's unlikely, but whatever the high point of their career trajectory may be, it will on average be lower for the daughters and they will be discriminated against because they are daughters.

meic wrote:The abuse suffered by white middle class females is so low level that many dont even know it is happening to them, unless somebody points it out to them.


ITYM "is so pervasive that they tend to take it in their stride having come to think of it as normal".

It doesn't happen to white middle class men.

meic wrote:As the saying goes "man, I wish I had their problems."


Says the man that doesn't have them... Because they're doing on the whole just fine doesn't make it okay to treat them worse than their male counterparts. But that's what's happening.

meic wrote:When reading the articles in the papers (lets point at the Guardian) it is all about the women who are right at the top of society and earnings levels.


Deary, deary me. One of the Graun's Big Things of recent times has been FGM. This is not an issue "about the women who are right at the top of society". Sexism is pervasive across society, and if anything quite a lot worse at the poorer end.

meic wrote:The minimum wage is the same for men and women.


Well, that's solved everything. Hurrah!

Now we are showing where our priorities lie. Such dismissal of the concerns of the problems of a very large section of society, who were suffering the most from real sexism. Instead it is the concentration on the relative success of those at the top.

The issue of FGM is on a level way above day to day sexism it is also illegal and not practiced in the UK. That would be like me making a leap from being given the finger by a passing motorist to the ISIS beheadings.
Yet the Guardian manages to mix it up with being called "Love" by some bloke. Which is something that I, as a man, am very familiar with, having once lived in Sheffield.
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Freddie
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Freddie » 27 May 2016, 10:15am

Quite, the "everyday sexism" website is a belittlement of real sex based oppression and sex specific violence that non-western women have to face. Everyday solipsism would be a more accurate name for much of the postings there.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby Tangled Metal » 27 May 2016, 10:17am

reohn2 wrote:Are there podium men for the women's races?

Come to think of it,are there any women's races :roll: ........

Why not have podium men for men's races? If there is nothing wrong with the image of podium men and women then is there an exemption for this role in equality laws that allows only men for women's events and women for men's events. What about trans-gender? Why not include that group too?

BTW there are women's races. I happened to be in town when a town centre series was being held. Part of a national series of events in different towns and cities. It had junior and senior races for both genders. It was as exciting watching one race as the next. Despite the men's senior race being the blue ribbon race of the day it was not more interesting than the women's race IMHO.

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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 10:23am

Tangled Metal wrote:Gainful employment? Perhaps stripping to your bikinis on a cold presentation platform to present your body and a trophy/medal/winners champagne bottle is gainful employment. They get paid it's a job.

But what a job it is! It's about the female body, it must be or why have most of it uncovered? Of course the female form is beautiful so what is wrong with showing it you might argue. Then to prevent sexism comments you might say male form is beautiful and if the women want it then men could do that job in women's events. That doesn't get past the question as to whether the appreciation of the human form should happen in any circumstances. Do you believe it appropriate to see naked people in all areas of modern life because the human form is beautiful?

Simple question, if the human form is beautiful and it is positive to appreciate it, is there ever a time or place or activity at which nakedness or near nakedness is inappropriate?

If you completely believe that there isn't such a time, place or activity that the human body doesn't enhance then I can understand how you can justify podium girls. Just need to rule out the girls only bit at each event and recruit solely on the beauty of the naked body applying for the job. Equal opportunities should mean that these events should have men doing it surely? Imagine the Giro winner having a male and a female chest in his face on the podium. Equality in action. If that ever happens I'll complain about that being inappropriate too.

I dont like football but I appreciate that others do, as such I never interfere in how they conduct it.
I dont see the appropriateness of the podium girls, dressed or not. However I dont even watch cycle racing, so I see no reason for me to sign this petition and interfere in what isnt my business.
If they were to suggest podium girls (or boys) at the end of some super endurance Audaxes, my reply would be "dont be bloody stupid".
There is a ground between justifying podium girls and seeking to abolish them.

My contribution to this thread started when the very idea of appreciation (or stronger attraction) of the female form by men was frowned upon.
Yma o Hyd

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby reohn2 » 27 May 2016, 10:30am

Tangled Metal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Are there podium men for the women's races?

Come to think of it,are there any women's races :roll: ........

Why not have podium men for men's races? If there is nothing wrong with the image of podium men and women then is there an exemption for this role in equality laws that allows only men for women's events and women for men's events. What about trans-gender? Why not include that group too?

BTW there are women's races. I happened to be in town when a town centre series was being held. Part of a national series of events in different towns and cities. It had junior and senior races for both genders. It was as exciting watching one race as the next. Despite the men's senior race being the blue ribbon race of the day it was not more interesting than the women's race IMHO.


Humour seems to escaped your attention :wink:
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Re: Podium Girls

Postby karlt » 27 May 2016, 10:30am

Freddie wrote:Quite, the "everyday sexism" website is a belittlement of real sex based oppression and sex specific violence that non-western women have to face. Everyday solipsism would be a more accurate name for much of the postings there.


Yeah. Stop moaning. It's worse elsewhere. [slap] stop your whining; in Saudi Arabia I could use a stick.

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Re: Podium Girls

Postby meic » 27 May 2016, 10:33am

karlt wrote:
Freddie wrote:Quite, the "everyday sexism" website is a belittlement of real sex based oppression and sex specific violence that non-western women have to face. Everyday solipsism would be a more accurate name for much of the postings there.


Yeah. Stop moaning. It's worse elsewhere. [slap] stop your whining; in Saudi Arabia I could use a stick.


You have exaggerated to a level which isnt actually present, in order to create a false image.
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