Podium Girls

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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by meic »

Lewd comments and even gratuitous touching seems to happen to women cyclists when they are merely riding on public roads, open to all. You appear to be suggesting they should avoid cycling on roads to avoid harassment....


Well, I guess I am always open to (deliberate) misinterpretation.

However a great many non-cyclists have made exactly that decision, though not because of the sexual assaults.
I myself have been driven off the main roads, mostly, and stick to the lanes.

I am saying that you can lessen or increase your exposure to harassment by what you do and where you ride, I have made absolutely no suggestions about what anybody should do, except for my own children and myself.
Yma o Hyd
sjs
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by sjs »

monxton wrote:
sjs wrote:Couldn't agree more. The Mary Beard thing genuinely amazed me.

Sadly it wouldn't have amazed Mary Beard in the least. She is one of the most reviled targets of misogynists.


I do know that. I was just surprised to see it on this forum. Naive really; there's no reason to expect any correlation between people's rational views on chain wear and wheel building and their views on anything else. I was also a bit surprised at the lack of reaction.
pete75
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
Lewd comments and even gratuitous touching seems to happen to women cyclists when they are merely riding on public roads, open to all. You appear to be suggesting they should avoid cycling on roads to avoid harassment....


Well, I guess I am always open to (deliberate) misinterpretation.

However a great many non-cyclists have made exactly that decision, though not because of the sexual assaults.
I myself have been driven off the main roads, mostly, and stick to the lanes.

I am saying that you can lessen or increase your exposure to harassment by what you do and where you ride , I have made absolutely no suggestions about what anybody should do, except for my own children and myself.


With the bit in red you imply women cyclists should lesson their exposure to harassment by not cycling in the places where it occurs i.e. roads. No misinterpretation here...
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by meic »

I make a distinction between can and should.

You can keep on trying to misrepresent what I have said but I dont think that you should.
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pete75
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:I make a distinction between can and should.

You can keep on trying to misrepresent what I have said but I dont think that you should.


Mere semantics. There's little difference between suggesting that women can or should avoid abuse by not cycling on public roads. It's a work around which detriments women cyclists. Where problems are concerned a work around is the enemy of a solution.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
atoz
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by atoz »

Quite agree Brian. FWIW I thought the tour de Yorkshire was a bit better than most. The two women who brought the flowers etc looked as if they could work for the tourist board who sponsored the event and were smartly dressed. They also used local mayors and there were some school aged kids on the platform. All these events are a contrivance but the age of the 'podium girl' ended a long time ago.


Yes I noticed this as well. As per usual Gary Verity has shown the world outside God's own the way it should be done- sorry but I couldn't resist that- lol
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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by meic »

pete75 wrote:
meic wrote:I make a distinction between can and should.

You can keep on trying to misrepresent what I have said but I dont think that you should.


Mere semantics. There's little difference between suggesting that women can or should avoid abuse by not cycling on public roads. It's a work around which detriments women cyclists. Where problems are concerned a work around is the enemy of a solution.


It is not mere semantics they have quite different meanings, at least to me they do.
I meant the one that I said and not the one that you are repeatedly trying to replace it with.
I didnt make a mistake, I said can and I meant can not should.

As for it being a work around that detriments all women cyclists, it is also a work around that I practice myself and detriments ALL cyclists but I am personally better off for it.

Where problems are concerned a work around is the enemy of a solution.

Couldnt you just have come out and say that without trying to misinterpret what I said into something to disagree with. If you fight for the solution there may be personal risks involved.
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Vorpal
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by Vorpal »

meic wrote:But don't say that it must be something about the victim:
Not victim blaming but an acceptance that we are not powerless to influence things and that starts with understanding of what is happening, why and where.
I would not blame my daughter if she got raped walking through the middle of a gang of drunken yobs in a dark park but I would teach her to avoid such situations, just as I would teach my son to avoid such situations.
Failure to be streetwise can end up with them catching you, it is the harsh reality of Britain's streets.


For a long time, avoiding sexual assault has been advice to women to be street smart. The problem is that while being street smart, avoiding situations that may be troublesome, etc. will only help a little. And as long as that is the solution, victim blaming is all too easy.
The reality is that most sexual harrassment and sexual assaults are not the gang of yobs, or the creepy person following the victim home. They are someone who is known to the victim and often occur in circumstances where the person has, to some measure taken advantage of trust.
meic wrote: Don't say that men must protect women.
Not something that I am free to decide on, in my (clearly sexist) society my failure to do so would have me on a par with a murderer or peadophile. I actually couldnt live with myself either if I just walked away from that.
However I am talking about the serious crime level here not non-violent interactions.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't mean that people should not act to protect one another. I mean that it's not just about men must protect women. We all need to look out for each other and especially for those who are more vulnerable, or more likely to be a target. The point is that it's not 'men must protect women', but look out for each other.

meic wrote: Don't say evidence is required when people relate their experiences:
I dont see how we should create a special case here, normal rules should continue to apply.
Twice friends have told me about sexual assaults from ex-partners, I listened and sympathised and was upset by it. However if I was to wish to exact some revenge on their behalf (in violation of guidance above) I would NEED evidence.

An investigation requires evidence. Empathy does not.

meic wrote:Don't say not all men do that.
I didnt say that when my friends related their experience because they knew not all men did that and they were specifying a particular man. However in other instances, like this debate there is an underlying accusation that men are doing this and I among others am a man, so that includes ME. So I feel quite obliged to point out that not all men do that, especially not this one. Just like I say "not all cyclists jump red lights".
Now if you have a good reason why I should stand there in silence, acquiescing to the implication, for the greater good, I am listening.
The victims of sexual harrassment or assault aren't stupid. They *know* that not all men do things like that.

If you really think that you are implicated when someone relates an experience, by all means, say 'I'm not ;ike that'. Otherwise, it diverts the conversation, as if the victim, relaying experience was trying to place blame. They aren't. But even if they are looking for a place to put blame, do you really think it helps to say, 'not all men are like that'? Your friends who related their experiences to you *obviously* knew that not all men are like that, or they wouldn't have trusted you enough to tell you their experiences.

meic wrote:
And don't say it's just 'bad men'

I did say that when my friends related their experiences, I dont understand why I shouldnt, though to be fair I generally prefer to say nothing as everything I say tends to be wrong in all situations..


It's different with an assault or violent crime than harrassment. A great deal of harrassment, especially the milder sort, catcalling and the like is done by people who simply have a different perception of acceptable behaviour, who don't understand how it feels to be on the receiving end. They aren't necessarily bad.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
pete75
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by pete75 »

meic wrote:
As for it being a work around that detriments all women cyclists, it is also a work around that I practice myself and detriments ALL cyclists but I am personally better off for it.



You avoid riding on public roads or just some? Women can and do suffer abuse on all sorts of public roads not just the ones people don't like to cycle on because of traffic. Remember people who commute by bike may not have the choice of avoiding a particular road or type of road.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by roubaixtuesday »

I was also a bit surprised at the lack of reaction.[to Mary beard misogyny ]


Given that we've been through the full spectrum of sexism here, up to and including making jokes about how many women it would be fun to sexually assault on public transport, I guess most people had already given up on reacting by that point.

Anyway, just to say that my ride up Holme moss today was in no way spoiled by the lack of scantily clad women to congratulate me at the summit.
Trail Beater

Re: Podium Girls

Post by Trail Beater »

BrianFox wrote:
I was also a bit surprised at the lack of reaction.[to Mary beard misogyny ]


Given that we've been through the full spectrum of sexism here, up to and including making jokes about how many women it would be fun to sexually assault on public transport, I guess most people had already given up on reacting by that point.

Anyway, just to say that my ride up Holme moss today was in no way spoiled by the lack of scantily clad women to congratulate me at the summit.

Had to make do with scantily clad men then Brian ?
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meic
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by meic »

and including making jokes about how many women it would be fun to sexually assault on public transport,

I know what made you think that, now if you go back and read the post which you thought was saying that without prejudice of who wrote it, do you think that you might have misunderstood?

I thought that he meant something rather different.
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by roubaixtuesday »

Had to make do with scantily clad men then Brian ?


I did enjoy, and indeed reciprocate, some words of admiration from a couple of muscly chaps in skin tight lycra at the summit, as it happens.

One could say that we enjoyed brief but satisfying social intercourse.
sjs
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by sjs »

BrianFox wrote:
I was also a bit surprised at the lack of reaction.[to Mary beard misogyny ]


Given that we've been through the full spectrum of sexism here, up to and including making jokes about how many women it would be fun to sexually assault on public transport, I guess most people had already given up on reacting by that point.

Anyway, just to say that my ride up Holme moss today was in no way spoiled by the lack of scantily clad women to congratulate me at the summit.


I'm sure you're right.
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Re: Podium Girls

Post by Vorpal »

meic wrote:I am saying that you can lessen or increase your exposure to harassment by what you do and where you ride, I have made absolutely no suggestions about what anybody should do, except for my own children and myself.

While that may be true to some extent, for most women, the alternative is never to go anywhere alone. Because invariably, somewhere, there will be comments from someone.

Because inappropriate touching, verbal harrassement and even assault can and does happen anywhere. I've lived in areas that other people thought were bad neighborhoods, where a certain amount of street smarts were a reasonable to thing when out and about. I never had any problems there that I can recall.

One of the worst harassment experiences I ever had cycling, happened in a relatively small town in the UK in the middle of the day, when I was towing the kids in the trailer. It wasn't the sort of place that it would have occurred to me to avoid; a B road going out of town that I used frequently. Someone stopped on a roundabout so the passenger could verbally assault me. He spewed the worst filth I've ever heard come out of anyone's mouth (and I've heard a fair bit). And not just little of it, either. He carried on until it was clear for me to go and I was able to make my turn. Some of it was sexual in nature. Some of it was body-shaming, some of it was just filth.

As for sexual assault or harrassment, most of my significant incidents have occurred at work, not in bars or on city streets, nor walking amongst hoodlums.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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