Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

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Steady rider
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Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by Steady rider »

Currently there is a cyclist passing law petition ‘To introduce a permanent, minimum passing distance when overtaking cyclists.’ more than 20,000 have signed.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/128190

Both British Cycling and Cycling UK consider drivers passing too close needs to be tackled – it’s not only hazardous for cyclists, but also extremely intimidating.

Roughly in the UK we cycle about 5 billion km per year, assuming a low figure of 5 vehicle passes per km on average, 25 billion passes. Roughly about 1 in 50 passes may be passing too close and should be fined, 500 million per year, 1.37 million per day. In 2014 there were 21,287 cyclists injured in reported road accidents, including 3,514 who are killed or seriously injured.

European data on the death rate per billion kilometre cycle reported Norway with 11.0 cyclist deaths per billion kilometres cycled, followed by Denmark with 12.1, the Netherlands with 12.4, Sweden with 14.4 and Great Britain with 22.4, so a practical approach to improve safety is needed.

Data from Queensland, Australia reported cyclist deaths reduced from 23 to 10 and the number of serious (fatal and hospitalisations) reduced from 674 to 485 following their Minimum Passing Distance rule.

British Cycling approach;

Former Team GB star Chris Boardman, now a policy adviser to British Cycling, said the new law should be brought in “without delay.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mo ... es-8102754

In addition they would look to changes in the Highway Code when next revised.

The BC approach would mean that a passing law could be enforced and education and understanding that all road users need to share the road safely. This approach would be practical and allow the police to issue tickets for close passing without undue delay.

Cycling UK approach;
Cycling UK policy manager, Roger Geffen has supported the idea of a passing law in his submission, http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... _con_0.pdf

page 6 of 17.

A minimum passing distance, as called for in https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/128190. Although we are dismayed at the Government’s response, we are pleased that the Government is keeping its position on this under review. We believe it should be incorporated into the next HC revision.

They also say;
"We agree that close overtaking by motor vehicles should be tackled – it’s not only hazardous for cyclists, but also extremely intimidating. We have always been reluctant to specify a ‘headline’ overtaking distance, though. This is because (for example) even 1.5m may not be enough in some circumstances and we don’t want to risk giving drivers the impression that it is.

We therefore feel that the Highway Code (rather than the law) is the best place to explain optimum overtaking distances because it could state a standard minimum distance, but also elaborate on the circumstances in which more (and sometimes much more) space is needed – e.g. on fast roads, in bad weather etc. When the next revision is announced (we never know quite when this will be because it’s not regular), we’ll be campaigning for a variety of amendments, including much better/clearer advice to drivers on overtaking.

Our policy is also to promote cycle awareness training as an integral part of the driving test and compulsory practical cycle training for the drivers of large vehicles (lorries, buses and coaches etc.). This would, we think, help ensure that drivers learn to be very wary of overtaking cyclists, give them plenty of room and not overtake at all if they can’t do this."


Assuming people read the Code, follow its advice, that it is revised at some point to the liking of Cycling UK it could be helpful in the long term. Mainly new drivers read the Code. Advice in the Code to leave 1.0 m or 1.5 m would not be a legal requirement and therefore not enforceable. Recommending 1.0 m or 1.5 m without the legal support of legislation could lead to test cases and drivers challenging the Code with a loophole left for them to avoid either a charge or conviction of close passing.
Cycling UK approach is not really a practical solution to close overtaking.

Cycling UK has also voted against a legal requirement this year,
AGM result motion 14
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/ ... esults.pdf
At the AGM the directed voting were 1261 (20+53+1188) for and 844 (14+37+793) against. I make this 59.9% in favour of directed voting.

The Chairs discretionary voting 881, my view, this is questionable. This is because the voting paper puts the Chair’s option first combined with they do not have to name the person. The AGM is set up so that the Chair is always either the Councils Chair or deputy Chair. All other proxy’s have to be given to individuals and named and if they do not manage to attend their votes will not be counted from what I gather. In short it is an easier process voting for the Chair, a tick box option and gives an advantage. The Chair discretionary vote was used to oppose the motion, basically asking for a legal requirement.

Cycling UK Chief Executive Paul Tuophy was looking for more research into this issue.

Cycling UK also say;
We therefore feel that the Highway Code (rather than the law)’

They are giving mixed messages about a Minimum Passing Distance Law and offering a poor approach. To issue fines a law is required with the distances specified and included in the Highway Code, including only advice is not sufficent. They are also undermining the approach of BC by complicating the issue by suggesting it is either the law option or the Highway Code option when both can be used together.(legislation plus education are needed)
They are also discouraging people from signing the petition by their approach.
The Government and Parliament would decide if 1.0 m and 1.5 m were the most suitable values but they have been used and found to provide good results.

Cycling UK have been asked to look at this issue again at their next Council meeting and hopefully they may join the BC approach and contributing to changes in the H/Code.
Last edited by Steady rider on 20 Jun 2016, 9:48pm, edited 6 times in total.
Bez
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by Bez »

Steady rider wrote:European data on the death rate per billion kilometre cycle reported Norway with 11.0 cyclist deaths per billion kilometres cycled, followed by Denmark with 12.1, the Netherlands with 12.4, Sweden with 14.4 and Great Britain with 22.4, so a practical approach to improve safety is needed.

Data from Queensland, Australia reported cyclist deaths reduced from 23 to 10 and the number of serious (fatal and hospitalisations) reduced from 674 to 485 following their Minimum Passing Distance rule.


The data are pretty murky. Queensland fatality stats are highly volatile (they shot up like a rocket just after several press releases appeared championing the laws as having caused a drop), although the KSI data are potentially more interesting. I have a Google spreadsheet that some people were helping me pick through, listing and researching all the QLD fatalities with the aim of assessing whether there was even any potential for a passing law to exert any influence on the fatality figures, but I confess to having let that slip.

Note that the countries you list as having lower cycling fatality rates are all pretty keen on safe infrastructure (I confess I'm pretty unfamiliar with Norway); if you look at other European countries you'll generally see a similar fatality rate to the UK even if they have more of the laws that some people are currently getting excited about. There is no robust link between pointing at fatality rates for these countries and saying anything about a passing distance law.

On a slight tangent, the data in the "safe infra" countries also aren't necessarily to be taken at face value. For instance, a significant number of cycling deaths in the Netherlands are those of old people, who commonly cycle on the safe infrastructure but whose age and frailty makes them not only more vulnerable to relatively minor collisions but also more statistically likely to suffer a fatal medical episode while cycling (because elsewhere they'd have the same episode doing something else). So where we see very high participation, the fatality rises as a result of the part of the population that are now participating: if you transposed the Netherlands/UK cycling population distributions into the other's cycling environment, the difference between them could be expected to become rather more pronounced.

I'm still firmly of the opinion that asking for a cyclist-specific and distance-based passing law comes at a significant political cost and offers no discernible practical benefit. I do think the Highway Code could use clarification, though.
reohn2
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

Bez wrote:The data are pretty murky.........


The fear of close passes is very real,the effect is frightening for me a seasoned cyclist,for someone new to cycling on the road I can only imagine it's terrifying,possibly enough to make them stop cycling out of fear.
A minimum passing law(of 1m @30mph and below and 1.5m over that speed) will help greatly with that situation and TBH I cannot for the life of meunderstand why it isn't being pressed for by all cycling organisations within the UK,it's what's needed.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Doesn't need to be cyclist specific. Anyone not carry around a safety cage...

So motorcyclists, horses, pedestrians.... All would benefit from at least 1m gap.
When pedestrians are on the pavement I slow and/or move across to give them room - I don't think I'm on my own...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Doesn't need to be cyclist specific. Anyone not carry around a safety cage...

So motorcyclists, horses, pedestrians.... All would benefit from at least 1m gap.
When pedestrians are on the pavement I slow and/or move across to give them room - I don't think I'm on my own...


Well said the spectrum needs widening.
I've said many times that the motorcycle,equestrian,pedestrian,cycling, and any other vulnerable road user groups,need to unite on such issues.
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by al_yrpal »

Anyone who ACTUALLY rides a bike knows that a passing law will make them safer and make cycling a more pleasant means of getting around. It will also encourage more people to cycle. The knockers, pedants and nitpickers do us all no service.

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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by meic »

It depends on people's expectations.

At present in the UK, you get something along the lines of 10% of very safe passers, regardless of the situation.
About 80% who give you what they believe that they should (which reduces to almost nothing if the option is any serious deviation from what they were already doing) and 10% who are just plain vindictive.

The law/HC change will change the expectations of the 80% and encourage many of them to do what they would probably like to do anyway but feel pressurised to make better progress instead.

The 10% at either extreme will be unaffected and cyclists, including myself, will get worked up about the now illegal close passes from the worst 10% and conflicts will occur much more frequently as cyclists cease to passivity accept such driving.

So even though the law will be a success for the majority of passes by motorists, it will be seen as a failure because of the 10% that will carry on just as before, knowing the law will not normally be enforced even if they make contact.
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reohn2
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

meic wrote:It depends on people's expectations.

At present in the UK, you get something along the lines of 10% of very safe passers, regardless of the situation.
About 80% who give you what they believe that they should (which reduces to almost nothing if the option is any serious deviation from what they were already doing) and 10% who are just plain vindictive.

The law/HC change will change the expectations of the 80% and encourage many of them to do what they would probably like to do anyway but feel pressurised to make better progress instead.

The 10% at either extreme will be unaffected and cyclists, including myself, will get worked up about the now illegal close passes from the worst 10% and conflicts will occur much more frequently as cyclists cease to passivity accept such driving.

So even though the law will be a success for the majority of passes by motorists, it will be seen as a failure because of the 10% that will carry on just as before, knowing the law will not normally be enforced even if they make contact.


But if the problem persists,at least if you decide carry a camera on the bike(as many do)there'll be no escaping the fact that such drivers are illegal and subject to a penalty.Which could be driving without due care and attention and carries points on the licence and potentially high fines penalty.
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jun 2016, 12:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by profpointy »

al_yrpal wrote:Anyone who ACTUALLY rides a bike knows that a passing law will make them safer and make cycling a more pleasant means of getting around. It will also encourage more people to cycle. The knockers, pedants and nitpickers do us all no service.

Al


I ACTUALLY ride a bike and fear the law will be useless or counterproductive. To convict on such a law you'd need to prove in a court of law that the limit had been breached, presumably with some kind of calibrated camera device. By analogy with drunken driving - it wouldn't be sufficient to say the driver seemed to have had a drink (less tha4n paralyitc say) without proper evidence of so many mg of alcohol per whatever.

As things stand, a policeman could if so minded prosecute on the basis of "too close", maybe based on video evidence, or even the cyclist being caused a wobble and an off. With a set legal limit - would paradoxically be harder in practice to prove.

Also, at high speed I'd suggest 1.5 m isn't enough space and 1m is nowhere near enough

To be fair, it is possible that merely having the law will help as a kind of publicity and awareness campaign even if no-one is convicted.

On balance I'm, I'm unconvinced. Insulting those of us unconvinced is gardly going to convince us either
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by meic »

reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:It depends on people's expectations.

At present in the UK, you get something along the lines of 10% of very safe passers, regardless of the situation.
About 80% who give you what they believe that they should (which reduces to almost nothing if the option is any serious deviation from what they were already doing) and 10% who are just plain vindictive.

The law/HC change will change the expectations of the 80% and encourage many of them to do what they would probably like to do anyway but feel pressurised to make better progress instead.

The 10% at either extreme will be unaffected and cyclists, including myself, will get worked up about the now illegal close passes from the worst 10% and conflicts will occur much more frequently as cyclists cease to passivity accept such driving.

So even though the law will be a success for the majority of passes by motorists, it will be seen as a failure because of the 10% that will carry on just as before, knowing the law will not normally be enforced even if they make contact.


But if the problem persists,at least if you decide carry a camera on the bike(as many do)there'll be no escaping the fact that such drivers are illegal and subject to a penalty.Which could be driving without due care and attention and carries points on the licence and potentially high fines penalty.

Experience shows us that in real life such video evidence is almost universally not acted on by the Police.
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by al_yrpal »

To be fair, it is possible that merely having the law will help as a kind of publicity and awareness campaign even if no-one is convicted.

Ah, so you do get the point. All this flim flam about enforcement is totally irrelavent. Laws are a code that should be followed. Who enforces the laws against murder, theft and assault?

Al
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

Profpointy
I've no intention of insulting you,near miss punishment passes are becoming common place and IMO need legislating against.
The juussttt inside 1m in a 30mph zone I can live with,and similarly so the 1.5m in a 30+mph zone,though I'd like the latter to be more,IMO wouldn't get a look in with the state of UK government though 1m/1.5m might just.
It's the downright dangerous <0.5m and ssome <0.3m passes that put fear of god up me and more so if on an open road with no other traffic,if a law can be passed to help bring such drivers to book then I'm all for it,it isn't perfect but it'll help.
Also IMHO if a few drivers are convicted due to camera evidence for such dangerous driving,which it has to be said is much harder without such a law,then word will get around that the judiciary aren't standing for it,and cycling as a result will become much safer consequently more people will choose to cycle.
As things stand drivers are getting away with appalling driving habits,and not just around cyclists either but driving generally.
I could rant on about the lack of effective traffic policing, but a camera on a bike could prove beyond doubt the dangers of very close passes in which the cyclist becomes the policeman.
To be perfectly clear minor infringements I can put up with,not so deliberate anti cycling driving habits such as is becoming more evident.
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reohn2
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

meic wrote:Experience shows us that in real life such video evidence is almost universally not acted on by the Police.


But with a law to back it up the blatant flouting of the law at least can proven,as it is the law is an Ass because there's no limit to work to.
Perhaps a few test cases would reinforce the new law?

EDIT:- as it is if nothing is done nothing will happen,perhaps you have a better idea?
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by PH »

I wish those who prefer BCs approach would close the door on the way out.
The AGM, under the supervision of the ERS, didn't decide
Cycling UK has also voted against a legal requirement this year,

It decided not to commit the organisation to campaigning for it - huge difference. It voted in a way that's understood by just about everyone other than a few on here that seem unable to grasp that supporting the council's position is as democratic a choice as any other.
The AGM had a commitment from the CEO that the experience in other countries would be looked at and considered. If that doesn't happen, it'll be me jumping up and down shouting about it.
If you want to compare that to BCs position, try and find out what that is first. All that's provided above is a couple of CB soundbites on the subject. All well and good, but where's the policy behind it? Where's the committment to campaign for it?
I'd love there to be less close passes, who wouldn't, but I'm not convinced that trying to get a law introduced is the right way to achieve it.
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Re: Cyclist passing law approach, BC v CUK

Post by reohn2 »

PH wrote:I wish those who prefer BCs approach would close the door on the way out....


As long as this forum is open to anyone,you will just have to endure the opinions of others,even those with contrary views to yourself and the CUK commitee

I'm not convinced that trying to get a law introduced is the right way to achieve it.

I am,and so are 20,000 others who signed the petition!
Last edited by reohn2 on 15 Jun 2016, 1:27pm, edited 1 time in total.
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