Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

thirdcrank
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby thirdcrank » 19 Mar 2019, 8:42pm

I had a quick look on streetview and my first impression was at least it's gated to prevent motor traffic using it ie not the usual exemptions for all manner of motor traffic, but on a closer look I see there's a car parked on the footway outside one of the charity shops which tend to make up a large part of the "retail" trade in these run-down town centres. Thinks: How did the google car get down there with those gates shut? Am I bothered?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.44246 ... 312!8i6656

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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 19 Mar 2019, 9:04pm

I imagine the parked car arrived before the gates were closed and "delivered" the Virgin gazebo that has been erected in front of it. The "no parking at any time" restrictions won't have bothered anybody, a local motor dealer is regularly invited to park up a couple of cars to help sell their wares at the weekend.

The google "car" was most likely a google "backpack".

When the gates are open it's generally a free for all with nobody in authority giving a monkeys about the obstructive pavement parking, unsafe driving speeds, routine two way cycling or even occasional two way driving.
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby Bmblbzzz » 20 Mar 2019, 8:16pm

There is also a (presumably several) google streetview trike.

thirdcrank
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby thirdcrank » 20 Mar 2019, 8:20pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:There is also a (presumably several) google streetview trike.


I hope they wouldn't use it in contravention of a cycling ban. :shock:

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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 15 May 2019, 9:17pm

OK folks, looking for some help.

The PSPO is up for renewal and (even more disappointingly) extension.

In the consultation survey the council state "There is evidence to suggest that bicycles being ridden in pedestrianised areas causes a public nuisance and can be potentially dangerous."

It would be extremely useful to present the case that there is evidence that the above statement is nonsense, or at least that there is evidence to the contrary.

I'm aware of TRL Report PR 15, 1993. What else can you point me to?
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby Lance Dopestrong » 15 May 2019, 9:54pm

Perhaps ask them what the evidence they claim to have actually is, before attempting to refute it? Ask them what data they have to support that statement. How many formally recorded complaints of that nature have they received? If they have received formal complaints, how many cite specific incidents with dates and time, and how many are mere un-evidenced moaning?

If they can provide none, or they're relying on mere anecdote, request that they withdraw that statement on the basis that it has no factual foundation, and therefore counter to the requirements of an unbiased consultation.
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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 15 May 2019, 10:46pm

Already e-mailed requesting details of the evidence, I expect it will be either generic, anecdotal and/or whatever they gathered in the original PSPO consultation some three years ago. Wishing I'd FOI'd this a few months back, not enough time now.

In one sense it's academic. There are underlying TROs that give effect to a "no cycling" zone, the PSPO just gives the council's enforcement officers powers to issue FPNs to transgressors.
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drossall
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby drossall » 15 May 2019, 11:02pm

gaz wrote:... the council state "There is evidence to suggest that bicycles being ridden in pedestrianised areas causes a public nuisance and can be potentially dangerous."

To be honest, I'm not sure how you can argue against that sentence. It contains three separate qualifications. Whilst appearing to say "... bicycles ... ridden in pedestrianised areas ... (are) dangerous", it actually says that:
  • There is evidence to suggest (i.e. this may be the case, but we're not sure), that it
  • can be (i.e. we're not sure about this either)
  • potentially dangerous
Well loads of things can be dangerous, and if it only has to be capable of being potentially dangerous then pretty much everything passes the test. You could insert almost anything into that sentence, for example letting kids run around your shopping centre, or maybe even a loaf of bread (there is evidence that you can potentially choke on one of those), but putting it in that sentence would provide no sensible basis for banning whatever you inserted.

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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 17 May 2019, 9:55pm

Lance Dopestrong wrote:Perhaps ask them what the evidence they claim to have actually is, before attempting to refute it?

Tried it. The answers appear to be that since the PSPO began they've issued 100+ FPNs, advised 200+ U18s to dismount (because they can't FPN them), have complaints from the public (unspecified) and Council Officers have witnessed dangerous cycling (presumaby all those FPN's).

Getting that little detail has been like trying to nail jelly to the wall, I conclude that the evidence amounts to "but cyclists".

I've e-mailed Cycling UK's campaigns team since the website says they want to know about PSPO consultations, I'm not getting my hopes up on that score though, more of a bonus if they come back with something.

Edit: Hoping for a chat with Duncan Dollimore tomorrow.

Edit 2: Chat became a short game of answerphone tennis, oh well. Hopeful that there will be a formal response from Cycling UK.
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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 8 Aug 2019, 6:24pm

Consultation closed at the end of May. I had not heard anything further but the PSPO page on the council website was altered a couple of says ago. So I emailed for an update. This was the reponse:
Following the consultation, Legal advice and taking on board your comments a decision was made not to renew or extend the Order at this time. We will continue to educate those riding inconsiderately within the pedestrianised area.

One small step, no giant leap.
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drossall
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby drossall » 8 Aug 2019, 8:26pm

So did the TRO ever actually restrict cycling beyond the hours when all vehicles (including bikes) are banned? Or was it in fact the PSPO, so cycling is restricted only to the extent that all vehicles are?

I'm interested because our town centre has a "pedestrianisation" scheme that excludes motor vehicles on Saturdays, but the council, who plainly don't understand highway law, have made attempts to enforce their non-existent ban on bikes. I've even been told by a town-centre warden that the police were supporting the enforcement with on-the-spot fines, who knows on what basis. Apart from the difficulties for cyclists of obeying imaginary and unpredictable "rules", I think it's also unfair on pedestrians to create wrong expectations about what vehicles may come along the road.

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gaz
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby gaz » 8 Aug 2019, 9:04pm

drossall wrote:So did the TRO ever actually restrict cycling beyond the hours when all vehicles (including bikes) are banned?

I've lost track of what I may have posted upthread so a brief summary here.

The PSPO has now expired and not been renewed. The practical effect of the PSPO was to allow the council's enforcement officers to issue FPNs for cycling in the forbidden zone during the stated time period. The time period matched the restrictions for all traffic.

By chance I found a 90's TRO which supports the all traffic restriction, I have yet to go looking for a TRO that supports the more general "no cycling" signage but I doubt that there is one.

I could spend a lot of time and effort trying to get the no cycling signs taken down because they don't reflect the TRO, or a lot of time and effort trying to get cyclists exempted from the TRO at which point the signs would have to come down. To be honest I think the first could be a useful step towards the second.

Either way I've other battles to fight at the moment.
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drossall
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby drossall » 8 Aug 2019, 9:20pm

Does sound somewhat similar though - enforcement of non-existent restrictions.

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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby Wanlock Dod » 8 Aug 2019, 9:21pm

Something like this would seem to be a good alternative
Wandelstraat.png

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Public Space Protection Order to prohibit cycling.

Postby The utility cyclist » 12 Aug 2019, 3:38pm

Meanwhile in Hull city centre cycling has not been banned from areas such as this, a reporter tried to insist people were unlawfully cycling https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hu ... on-3069427 but she was wrong and did not apologise for her obvious lies (clearly agenda driven as she deliberately used an out of date map and as she had 'observed' 55 cyclists didn't bother to take in there is no signage to say cycling is prohibited :roll:
So you can cycle here perfectly fine and I do so every time I go back to the train station.
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