Deterring mobile phone use

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Cyril Haearn »

The daily wail reports that the majority of drivers caught on the phone are offered "education" [sic!] instead of points or a fine

Over to you, Suzette Davenport!
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mjr
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mjr »

Tougher penalties not working, still about 25% of GB's 36m drivers would admit to being phoney drivers according to a RAC survey: http://road.cc/content/news/229740-9m-d ... ording-rac - scarily, 20% admit checking social media while in traffic. If you're reading this from the driver's seat, bloody well stop it!

I suspect it's not going to change until we get more high-level number-plate-and-driver roadside cameras detecting active phones and flagging the photos for review to see if it’s the driver. Tougher penalties don’t matter much if offenders expect not to get caught. The number of people driving along leaned over with one shoulder slumped, texting/IMing on a concealed phone by the handbrake, is pretty scary and makes me glad that the wide fast A road through my local retail parks has a half-decent cycleway bypass.

CUK is correct on this, having called for more enforcement when the penalties were increased.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by thirdcrank »

I'd forgotten that I started this thread, linking to a killer driver who had been filmed by an in-cab camera using his phone. At that time, he had been remanded in custody to be sentenced later and it looks as though his sentencing didn't make it onto the thread, although it may have been the subject of another.

It seems he got ten years imprisonment and opinions will vary on whether that's appropriate for killing an adult and three children

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37823457

Certainly not much sign that others have been deterred.

Something that surprises me a bit is the number of well-behaved drivers who may be affected or annoyed by the bad behaviour of others but who tolerate it, even though they may suffer as a result. One of my hobbyhorses here is uninsured drivers, who, through the working of the insurance industry schemes meeting the tab, cost insured drivers huge sums annually. The factual info is publicised but nobody seems bothered.

I move in limited social circles these days but I see little evidence that using a phone while driving is becoming socially unacceptable, which would be the key to restricting it. Unlike drink/driving, this isn't discreet and something that may only be evident after a crash and tests. Everbody who looks can see it happening.
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mjr
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:I move in limited social circles these days but I see little evidence that using a phone while driving is becoming socially unacceptable, which would be the key to restricting it. Unlike drink/driving, this isn't discreet and something that may only be evident after a crash and tests. Everbody who looks can see it happening.

It's not that easy to see. The current fashion of a lean-to-the-left using a phone held down by the handbrake is only obvious once you've seen into a few cars (maybe by cycling alongside them) and realised the reason for it. It's surprisingly difficult to get on a dashcam or handlebarcam and almost impossible to get the number plate in the same shot. It's easier to see at night (the phone screen illuminates the interior) but then the number plate is even harder to capture clearly.

Ideally, this needs traffic police, but roadside phone-detector cameras may help.
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Annoying Twit
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Annoying Twit »

I don't think this is going to change. I think this will be like the damage and death caused by cars. Phone use is already so normalised in our society and there is such a sense of entitlement to use them, that nothing will be done to properly stop it. Governments will pay lip service, but nothing will be done to actually stop it.

It's like dog walkers who let their dogs sh*t all over the place. To actually stop it would annoy so many people that no one is going to bite that apple.
thirdcrank
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: ... Ideally, this needs traffic police, but roadside phone-detector cameras may help.


Re the cameras, I'm not sure because I don't know their capabilities. I doubt there's the technology for a camera to provide definitive evidence of an offence. Once you get down to having people poring over footage and then having to send off for the driver to be interviewed under caution, it's getting cumbersome. ie Enforcement camera footage would be not much different to a report from a member of the public which had to be followed up. With current camera enforcement the offences are capable of being proved by pictures capturing the speed or a manoeuvre of the vehicle. The ID of the driver/offender is ascertained by notices requiring the information.

Re Traffic police, we may have different ideas about what that means. To me traffic police are specialists through training and experience who have white tops on their caps and drive fast cars. There will be some drivers who continue to offend in the presence of marked police cars but they do make many behave better. There's a balance between marked cars improving behaviour generally and unmarked cars working by catching a few and perhaps keeping the others on their toes. FWIW, my understanding is that our own PCC scrapped unmarked patrol cars as one of his first actions after being elected: not to reduce enforcement but to make police as visible as possible.

I've no idea what sort of evidence the CPS requires in terms of corroboration - ie is one police witness sufficient? - but this is the sort of offence that can be detected by the shedful by somebody standing at the roadside in an urban centre without a lot of special training. Stop the vehicle and ask about the phone. No recent experience and it may be that today's drivers feel freer to drive on, ignoring the police. Perhaps a few motorbikes would be useful for this offence and others. :?

Anyway, at present, it's sporadic enforcement and few if any are impressed.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Cyril Haearn »

When sitting in my car at the lights I glance in the mirror and see the driver behind me on the phone

Should I refuse to move off?
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mjr
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:Re the cameras, I'm not sure because I don't know their capabilities. I doubt there's the technology for a camera to provide definitive evidence of an offence. Once you get down to having people poring over footage and then having to send off for the driver to be interviewed under caution, it's getting cumbersome. ie Enforcement camera footage would be not much different to a report from a member of the public which had to be followed up.

Indeed - it would not be much different to a dashcam report and some constabularies are currently welcoming those. The difference here is that it would be a better-angled camera and only triggered when an active mobile call/data-transfer was detected.

Cyril Haearn wrote:When sitting in my car at the lights I glance in the mirror and see the driver behind me on the phone

Should I refuse to move off?

No. http://highwaycode.info/rule/147 once again: "You should ... not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse."
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Re the cameras, I'm not sure because I don't know their capabilities. I doubt there's the technology for a camera to provide definitive evidence of an offence. Once you get down to having people poring over footage and then having to send off for the driver to be interviewed under caution, it's getting cumbersome. ie Enforcement camera footage would be not much different to a report from a member of the public which had to be followed up.

Indeed - it would not be much different to a dashcam report and some constabularies are currently welcoming those. The difference here is that it would be a better-angled camera and only triggered when an active mobile call/data-transfer was detected.

Cyril Haearn wrote:When sitting in my car at the lights I glance in the mirror and see the driver behind me on the phone

Should I refuse to move off?

No. http://highwaycode.info/rule/147 once again: "You should ... not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse."

Small point, but data transfer is almost comnstant with modern phones, so not sure how proactical that would be.

I do think that this is a classic case of the chance of detection currently being below the threshold of deterrent at the moment, so the deployment of technology would be welcome. That said, let it be done well (speed cameras, anyone?) if it's done at all.
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mjr
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote:
mjr wrote:The difference here is that it would be a better-angled camera and only triggered when an active mobile call/data-transfer was detected.

Small point, but data transfer is almost comnstant with modern phones, so not sure how proactical that would be.

If you're foolish enough to leave data transfer switched on constantly, eating your battery and snooping on you for various companies, you probably deserve increased scrutiny - but the camera images would need reviewing to see if the phone was handheld anyway. I'm not sure whether detectors can distinguish type of transmission these days anyway and rather catch too many images of possible offenders for review than too few.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mjr wrote:The difference here is that it would be a better-angled camera and only triggered when an active mobile call/data-transfer was detected.

Small point, but data transfer is almost comnstant with modern phones, so not sure how proactical that would be.

If you're foolish enough to leave data transfer switched on constantly, eating your battery and snooping on you for various companies, you probably deserve increased scrutiny - but the camera images would need reviewing to see if the phone was handheld anyway. I'm not sure whether detectors can distinguish type of transmission these days anyway and rather catch too many images of possible offenders for review than too few.

Riiiiight :D
Adnepos
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by Adnepos »

Advertised on the overhead messaging on the M74:

https://my.trafficscotland.org/

Isn't this an inducement for drivers to pick up the mobile to check on the traffic conditions down the road?
mattsccm
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mattsccm »

Thing is, we don't have robust penalties. Fines with 5 digits or crushing of the car would make people think. To my mind we do have some crimes that are needing less definitive proof. Here you could just accept a pic of a phone in hand as it. Easy to not be caught, don't pick it up. Why not enforce makers to create phones that switch off near engines? So what if passengers can call! It hasn't be vital until recently, why is it do vital now?
reohn2
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by reohn2 »

Detection and stiff penalties are the only thing people understand,given the parallels with D&D IMO first offence should attract a £400 fine and a 3month driving ban,second offence £1000 + 12month ban.
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mjr
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Re: Deterring mobile phone use

Post by mjr »

I'm not sure if bigger penalties matter when no one thinks that they will get caught.

We can't enforce phones to shut off near engines because Android source code is published so it could be defeated relatively simply by simply upgrading your phone. I guess you could require phone makers to not allow upgrades but that's bad for security and a massive anticompetitive move and someone will import phones from countries without such daft restrictions.

Also, wouldn't it essentially break mobile phones used anywhere there are motorists, including the front rooms of loads of houses with front doors which open straight onto the street?
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