Crapper Cycle Lanes

MikeF
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby MikeF » 12 Nov 2016, 9:35am

661-Pete wrote:I should perhaps add, that I think the 'Maple Drive' examples which I linked to above (there are about a dozen of them, at intervals along the whole length of the road) are positively dangerous, if taken in the way that some misbegotten traffic engineer apparently intended them to be taken! Consider: the cyclist takes the marked-off lane: on reaching its 'END' he/she re-emerges into the road traffic, maybe without looking behind. Meanwhile a following motorist has to 'chicane', first to the right to avoid the marked-off area, then to the left to avoid the bollards. Recipe for a collision!

Perhaps someone ought to 'do something' about these monstrosities. But how?
I entirely agree. I haven't cycled in Burgess Hill, even though it's not that far away, so I haven't first hand experience.

I suggest you write/email Bob Lanzer councillor for WSCC Highways and Transport and copy it to your local County Council Councillor. The more people make councillors aware of these stupidities the better. You could also draw his attention to the recent cycling summit at County Hall, so he hasn't really any excuse for not being aware of problems.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby reohn2 » 12 Nov 2016, 10:33am

661-Pete wrote:Why weren't my local examples included?

That's an invitation for motorists to cut the cyclist up,how a high engineer can't see that is beyond my comprehension :? .
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reohn2
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby reohn2 » 12 Nov 2016, 10:40am

MikeF wrote:The Warrington Cycling Campaign highlights this, but fails to show what looks to be an absolutely horrendous junction a few hundred yards away. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8988681,-1.3924769,3a,66.8y,96.02h,88.53t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1siv9_3o7CpRA0EdIaWZ09bw!2e0?hl=en-GB How does the DfT's "Think!" campaign relate to this?? :shock: :shock: Anyone know it?
It even has this facility for cyclists in the middle of the junction :shock:

The bus stop example is trivial compared with the junction layout, but it is symptomatic of the problem of cycling design. However major safety issues need to be at the top of the list - in my view the bus stop isn't one.

mjr wrote:Why teach them how to do it? Better to give them copies of Making Space for Cycling (print copies should be at the CN/CUK conference 19 November, St Albans) or even the Sustrans design manual... better yet, http://www.writeToThem.com to your MP and suggest that some decent standard should be mandatory instead of keeping repeating the mistake of issuing weak poor guidance and leaving it to local councils to screw up.
+1


I totally agree with the whole of this post,IMO the cycling problems aren't even on the agenda for the vast majority of politrickians as IMHO they see cyclists as the problem and as a thorn in the side of traffic and not part of it.
That's why poor anything will do,cycling facilities are the norm,things are changing slightly in certain areas but it's a very slow process.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby Pete Owens » 12 Nov 2016, 4:30pm

karlt wrote:Because they already know how to do it but don't give a flying one.

But what they do really really care about is their reputations - which is why subjecting them to public ridicule is such an effective strategy.

reohn2
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby reohn2 » 12 Nov 2016, 5:30pm

Pete Owens wrote:
karlt wrote:Because they already know how to do it but don't give a flying one.

But what they do really really care about is their reputations - which is why subjecting them to public ridicule is such an effective strategy.

Really?
It doesn't appear to be working IMO,and we can't count on CuK doing much ridiculing or much else FTM :?
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MikeF
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby MikeF » 12 Nov 2016, 7:59pm

Pete Owens wrote:
karlt wrote:Because they already know how to do it but don't give a flying one.

But what they do really really care about is their reputations - which is why subjecting them to public ridicule is such an effective strategy.
I think you are completely misguided if you think that. I have not purchased the book and I'll need some extreme persuasion to justify a purchase as I cannot see the point of it.

I think all cyclists know of "Crapper Cycle Lanes" and Pete's examples are one; we, as cyclists, don't need a book to show them. Also the fact that there are C* cycle lanes in Burgess Hill in Sussex will be of no interest to anyone in authority in Warrington, or anywhere else in the the UK, and vice versa.

What is needed is an explanation or presentation with guidelines of design to those that need to know. If this "book" can be made freely available eg as a PDF stating clearly what is wrong with the designs together with current best practice then it might achieve something. Here is an example.

Ridicule, by what is seen as a small percentage of the population, will achieve absolutely nothing. Unfortunately CUK seems to have fallen into the trap by promoting this publication. If you really want to try to make an impact, send one to the councillors for transport in every council, but even then I doubt it will have little effect.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby mjr » 12 Nov 2016, 11:53pm

Pete Owens wrote:
karlt wrote:Because they already know how to do it but don't give a flying one.

But what they do really really care about is their reputations - which is why subjecting them to public ridicule is such an effective strategy.

Prove it. Excluding Warrington and neighbouring districts/boroughs, what % of FoTMs older than a year are fixed and what evidence is there FoTM is part of the reason for fixing any?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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661-Pete
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby 661-Pete » 15 Nov 2016, 7:19pm

MikeF wrote:Here is an example.
If you follow that link, I should perhaps point out that the infamous "Harlow" example illustrated there is a bit misleading. The crossings with CYCLIST DISMOUNT signs were in fact much more widely-spaced, the image is foreshortened because it was taken through a long-focus lens. I believe the system has since been changed anyway, no doubt due to all the bad publicity!

My Burgess Hill example - along with many thousands of others throughout the country - has yet to be changed.... :?
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MikeF
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby MikeF » 15 Nov 2016, 7:41pm

661-Pete wrote:
MikeF wrote:Here is an example.
If you follow that link, I should perhaps point out that the infamous "Harlow" example illustrated there is a bit misleading. The crossings with CYCLIST DISMOUNT signs were in fact much more widely-spaced, the image is foreshortened because it was taken through a long-focus lens. I believe the system has since been changed anyway, no doubt due to all the bad publicity!

My Burgess Hill example - along with many thousands of others throughout the country - has yet to be changed.... :?
My example was of a presentation, not as a list (as is the book) of bad design. Why the Harlow example has been changed, I know not, but perhaps someone pointed out the folly? Whether it's changed is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Have you contacted anyone about the Burgess Hill examples? If nobody has, then there definitely won't be a change! And if they're published in a book, it won't make any difference either.
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Winged wheels
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby Winged wheels » 15 Nov 2016, 7:55pm

New book - public authority vandalism and obstruction of the National Cycle Network? North Somerset Council have placed barriers and posts on various parts of NCN33. At long Ashton panniers have to be removed and replaced through bollards.
North Somerset really don't like cyclists

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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby mjr » 15 Nov 2016, 9:24pm

Winged wheels wrote:New book - public authority vandalism and obstruction of the National Cycle Network? North Somerset Council have placed barriers and posts on various parts of NCN33. At long Ashton panniers have to be removed and replaced through bollards.
North Somerset really don't like cyclists

Someone at Norfolk County Council seems to like putting crash barriers up too, but there also seem to be a few people who widen or remove them - I've no idea whether they're council workers who cycle (the most frequently-adjusted ones are on the cycle track leading to the council depot) or other Good Samaritans. Given the proximity to Bristol and the generally anarchic and DIY attitude of parts of that city, I'm surprised no-one's flattening bollards in Long Ashton.
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby Pete Owens » 22 Nov 2016, 12:39am

MikeF wrote:
661-Pete wrote:
MikeF wrote:Here is an example.
If you follow that link, I should perhaps point out that the infamous "Harlow" example illustrated there is a bit misleading. The crossings with CYCLIST DISMOUNT signs were in fact much more widely-spaced, the image is foreshortened because it was taken through a long-focus lens. I believe the system has since been changed anyway, no doubt due to all the bad publicity!

My Burgess Hill example - along with many thousands of others throughout the country - has yet to be changed.... :?
My example was of a presentation, not as a list (as is the book) of bad design. Why the Harlow example has been changed, I know not, but perhaps someone pointed out the folly?


Someone did indeed point it out:
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/September2007.htm
That was THE reason why that particular farcility gained notoriety - and THE reason why it was addressed. I did see a presentation by Essex officials to a cycling conference that started along the lines of "We though we were doing pretty well for cyclists until we saw this". I think that illustration did more than any amount of earnest campaigning to bring home to highway engineers just how unacceptable CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs are. Before that was published it was a near universal practice at every minor intersection with a cycle path - in the last decade it has become much less common.

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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby MikeF » 22 Nov 2016, 10:43am

Pete Owens wrote:
MikeF wrote:
661-Pete wrote:If you follow that link, I should perhaps point out that the infamous "Harlow" example illustrated there is a bit misleading. The crossings with CYCLIST DISMOUNT signs were in fact much more widely-spaced, the image is foreshortened because it was taken through a long-focus lens. I believe the system has since been changed anyway, no doubt due to all the bad publicity!

My Burgess Hill example - along with many thousands of others throughout the country - has yet to be changed.... :?
My example was of a presentation, not as a list (as is the book) of bad design. Why the Harlow example has been changed, I know not, but perhaps someone pointed out the folly?


Someone did indeed point it out:
http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month/September2007.htm
That was THE reason why that particular farcility gained notoriety - and THE reason why it was addressed. I did see a presentation by Essex officials to a cycling conference that started along the lines of "We though we were doing pretty well for cyclists until we saw this". I think that illustration did more than any amount of earnest campaigning to bring home to highway engineers just how unacceptable CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs are. Before that was published it was a near universal practice at every minor intersection with a cycle path - in the last decade it has become much less common.

"Cyclists Dismount" is a statement as it's on a rectangular blue sign, but many, including those who erect them think it's an instruction. For the latter it needs to be on a circular blue sign. :wink: How many pedestrians know they must keep on the designated side of a split path? :roll:

Highway engineers often receive the blame, but it's not always they who are entirely to blame. Their work is often governed by regulations/specifications and pressure from councillors.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby mjr » 22 Nov 2016, 11:03am

MikeF wrote:How many pedestrians know they must keep on the designated side of a split path? :roll:

Must they? That's rarely true in the creation orders so far, is it?
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Re: Crapper Cycle Lanes

Postby AlaninWales » 22 Nov 2016, 3:00pm

mjr wrote:
MikeF wrote:How many pedestrians know they must keep on the designated side of a split path? :roll:

Must they? That's rarely true in the creation orders so far, is it?

No, it is simply not true. Whilst pedestrians are banned from motorways and some A roads, I defy anyone to show a public cycle path in the UK where pedestrians are not allowed.