Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

MartinC wrote:
Mark R wrote:.......................The OP is arguing that populating the streets with millions and millions of diesel engines represented important work to tackle CO2 problem.....................


Unfortunately you've made this up, maybe my post wasn't clear enough. My point was that the switch to diesel was another bandwagon created to avoid the UK having to tackle it's car problem i.e. a technical palliative (or a hypocritical obfuscation if you prefer) to a cultural problem. It's preceded by previous bandwagons of the same nature and now followed by this latest one. The previous ones may have done some good but any benefit has been consumed by increased use. This latest one is the same but with one important difference - it undoes some of the benefit of the preceding ones.

Your view may be that the most important issue is your local air quality and that a solution must be found (at whatever cost to everyone else) that doesn't involve your urban neighbours changing their lifestyle preferences. Apologies if I have this wrong but it seems to be the gist of your argument. Your view may be that CO2 emissions are a lesser problem until the tide comes over the Thames barrier - but by then many others across the world will have been impacted terribly.

And MickF, although I know you heart's in the right place, if you don't care about air quality in London why do you expect anyone else to care about air quality (or even just how it smells) in Cornwall?



So you say, yet the rest of your post appears to justify the extra pollution from diesels on the grounds that their CO2 emissions are somewhat lower.

It is an argument which has been made over and over again.

It is completely bogus. Populating the streets with millions of diesel engines has demonstrably trashed roadside air quality but it has made practically zero difference in the fight against anthropogenic climate change. In fact you can make a pretty strong argument that diesel has just allowed the status quo to be maintianed, in particular the trend for ever larger vehicles, and ever longer commutes.

I'd like the structural problems of car dependency tackled as much as you. Any major political party which pledged to get serious about reducing car use would have my vote for sure.

What I don't understand is: If the number of vehicles is going to be reduced why wouldn't you want to start by getting rid of worst polluters?
Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

And MickF, although I know you heart's in the right place, if you don't care about air quality in London why do you expect anyone else to care about air quality (or even just how it smells) in Cornwall?


Actually, this bit suggests you are also playing down just how harmful diesel pollution is.....
pwa
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by pwa »

Mark R wrote:
And MickF, although I know you heart's in the right place, if you don't care about air quality in London why do you expect anyone else to care about air quality (or even just how it smells) in Cornwall?


Actually, this bit suggests you are also playing down just how harmful diesel pollution is.....


To be fair to Mick, I'm sure from what he has said many times before that he is very concerned about the health implications of diesel emissions.
Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

The post does't read like that though does it. It is basically trivialising the OPs concerns....
pwa
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by pwa »

Mark R wrote:The post does't read like that though does it. It is basically trivialising the OPs concerns....


He is the OP, Mark.

And if you have a quick glance through some of his earlier posts on this thread you will see that he is very serious about it. He's just getting a bit miffed about the focus shifting to the problems of London air whilst ignoring his own problems in the steep sided valley he lives in.
Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

OP means original poster right?
Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

I think we have our wires crossed!

I am criticising MartinC's post because it is apparently trivialising MickF's concerns about not being able to escape diesel exhaust whilst out riding.
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Mick F
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mick F »

pwa wrote:
Mark R wrote:The post does't read like that though does it. It is basically trivialising the OPs concerns....


He is the OP, Mark.

And if you have a quick glance through some of his earlier posts on this thread you will see that he is very serious about it. He's just getting a bit miffed about the focus shifting to the problems of London air whilst ignoring his own problems in the steep sided valley he lives in.
Yep.

If you have a main road on a steep hill with traffic lights and plenty through-traffic, they all sit at the traffic lights ready for the green light, then floor their throttles and zoom away up the hill.
Having the road narrow with high buildings and high hedges and trees, plus being in a valley, the muck hangs in the air.

Improvements could be made by all cars having stop/start and the drivers driving gently instead of gunning their engines.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Cunobelin
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Cunobelin »

Mick F wrote:
pwa wrote:
Mark R wrote:The post does't read like that though does it. It is basically trivialising the OPs concerns....


He is the OP, Mark.

And if you have a quick glance through some of his earlier posts on this thread you will see that he is very serious about it. He's just getting a bit miffed about the focus shifting to the problems of London air whilst ignoring his own problems in the steep sided valley he lives in.
Yep.

If you have a main road on a steep hill with traffic lights and plenty through-traffic, they all sit at the traffic lights ready for the green light, then floor their throttles and zoom away up the hill.
Having the road narrow with high buildings and high hedges and trees, plus being in a valley, the muck hangs in the air.

Improvements could be made by all cars having stop/start and the drivers driving gently instead of gunning their engines.



Ideal for ALL vehicles..... again we need to stop scapegoating Diesel and apply the solutions to ALL types of vehicle
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Mick F
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mick F »

I agree of course, but I'm complaining about the smelly acrid muck from diesel.
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by squeaker »

Mark R wrote:Interesting you mention HGVs

Much of the current thinking is that the latest emission controls on diesel HGVs are actually quite effective and, unlike diesel cars, HGVs more or less do 'what is says on the tin' WRT emissions. SO much so that NOx emissions from a modern truck COULD actually be lower than a EURO5 diesel car on a pollution per vehicle basis. (This was reported in the press a few months back but I can't find a link...)
ICCT report linked to at the bottom of this page.
HTH
"42"
MartinC
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by MartinC »

The pollution in vehicle exhausts isn't a trivial matter. How they smell is. If anyone argued that we should ban all petrol engines 'cos we don't like the smell of Hydrogen Sulphide we'd all laugh at them.

I live in a small village about 4 miles outside Tewkesbury. Our local air quality problem is that periodically large quantities of air get replaced with large quantities of water. It's happening with increasing frequency and severity because of climate change. It's happening in other parts of the UK too, some of them are even close to London. It's a local problem caused by external factors. We could all stop using cars here and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the local problem.

Here's an oversimplification. I drive about 5,000 miles a year now. Almost none of it is in built up areas. Any excess NOx and particulates I produce blow away across the fields and affect nobody. Any greenhouse gases I produce affect everybody.

Here's another. The local air quality problems in built up areas are produced entirely by local factors. If you live in a town and everybody wants to drive a car everywhere for everything then you're creating a problem for yourselves. Imposing measures on everyone that makes everybody's problems worse to solve a local problem that's self inflicted is incredibly selfish. Do we all have to produce more CO2 'cos the chattering classes in London are choking themselves and can't be buttocked to do anything about it.
pwa
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by pwa »

MartinC wrote:The pollution in vehicle exhausts isn't a trivial matter. How they smell is. If anyone argued that we should ban all petrol engines 'cos we don't like the smell of Hydrogen Sulphide we'd all laugh at them.

I live in a small village about 4 miles outside Tewkesbury. Our local air quality problem is that periodically large quantities of air get replaced with large quantities of water. It's happening with increasing frequency and severity because of climate change. It's happening in other parts of the UK too, some of them are even close to London. It's a local problem caused by external factors. We could all stop using cars here and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the local problem.

Here's an oversimplification. I drive about 5,000 miles a year now. Almost none of it is in built up areas. Any excess NOx and particulates I produce blow away across the fields and affect nobody. Any greenhouse gases I produce affect everybody.

Here's another. The local air quality problems in built up areas are produced entirely by local factors. If you live in a town and everybody wants to drive a car everywhere for everything then you're creating a problem for yourselves. Imposing measures on everyone that makes everybody's problems worse to solve a local problem that's self inflicted is incredibly selfish. Do we all have to produce more CO2 'cos the chattering classes in London are choking themselves and can't be buttocked to do anything about it.


Mick F lives in a similarly rural location, but the difference is that whereas Tewkesbury and the surrounding areas are flatish, or wide valleys, the lower Tamar where Mick F lives is steep sided and holds on to foul air. Vehicles on the steep main road are pushing out more gunk than they would on your local roads. So he does have a local problem. And you don't. I think your different perspectives are due to terrain.
Mark R
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

The pollution in vehicle exhausts isn't a trivial matter. How they smell is. If anyone argued that we should ban all petrol engines 'cos we don't like the smell of Hydrogen Sulphide we'd all laugh at them.

Except it is extremely rare these days to smell H2S from a catalyst. The smell of diesel exhaust on the other hand indicates the presence of a cocktail of nasty chemicals. Think aldehydes, benzoApyrene, butadiene etc etc etc. There are simply too many compounds to list. Many of them are known carcinogens and if the levels are high enough to leave an acrid stench when a vehicles passes, that's something to get upset about. Please don't trivialise people's legitimate concerns!

I live in a small village about 4 miles outside Tewkesbury. Our local air quality problem is that periodically large quantities of air get replaced with large quantities of water. It's happening with increasing frequency and severity because of climate change. It's happening in other parts of the UK too, some of them are even close to London. It's a local problem caused by external factors. We could all stop using cars here and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference to the local problem.


I know the area quite well having lived in Cheltenham for a couple of years. The air quality is Cheltenham is pretty terrible, traffic is to blame of course, a good chunk of it no doubt caused by people commuting in from outlying villages. Not sure the "us and them" angle really cuts it.

Here's an oversimplification. I drive about 5,000 miles a year now. Almost none of it is in built up areas. Any excess NOx and particulates I produce blow away across the fields and affect nobody. Any greenhouse gases I produce affect everybody.


So you are adamant diesel vs the alternatives has some relevance WRT to the problem of greenhouse gas emissions? You mentioned deck chairs on the titanic.......Anyway what about the cyclists you overtake? People waiting at bus stops, pedestrians in the towns and villages you visit? They all stand to have their health impacted by dirty diesels.

Here's another. The local air quality problems in built up areas are produced entirely by local factors. If you live in a town and everybody wants to drive a car everywhere for everything then you're creating a problem for yourselves. Imposing measures on everyone that makes everybody's problems worse to solve a local problem that's self inflicted is incredibly selfish. Do we all have to produce more CO2 'cos the chattering classes in London are choking themselves and can't be buttocked to do anything about it.


Personally I live in a market town e.g. it provides services for a wide rural area- it is technical classed as rural (though it really isn't) the air pollution is fairly terrible, mainly caused by diesels, so the idea this is all for the benefit of Londoners sounds pretty ridiculous from where i'm sitting.

I really, really struggle with this idea that we should accept dirty technologies if they happen to allow lower CO2 emissions, especially when there are far more acceptable alternatives. I Wonder how far you would go with that argument? For example:

Removing the particle filter from a modern diesel will improve fuel economy and thus lower CO2 emissions. Are people who refrain from doing this selfish?

Exactly the same situation exists for spark ignition engines - remove the 3-way catalyst and see a 5-10% inprovement in economy, hence lower CO2 emisisions. If I leave my catalyst fitted, am I showing a callous disregard for the residents of Tewksbury?

What if I install a woodburner and heat my home with waste plastic which would otherwise go to landfill? It would reduce my CO2 emissions for sure. Perhaps when my neighbours express concerns for their health, I should tell them to stop being so selfish and spare a thought for the people of the Maldives?
MartinC
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Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by MartinC »

The argument is about the malevolent form of nimbyism involved in agitating for a switch from diesel to petrol cars. We can do the switch and improve our local air quality at the expense of dumping the problem of increased carbon emissions on everybody else.

Does anyone have a moral justification for drowning a few more poor, brown people in Bangladesh so that we can avoid some of the immediate and self inflicted impacts of our own profligate lifestyle?

I'd be far more interested in reading this than another 55 pages of the sanctimonious rehearsal how evil one particular method of burning fossil fuels is. To me we have a simple choice - we can either reduce our car dependence or man up and take the consequences ourselves. Dumping the problem on someone else is heinous.
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