Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

[De Sisti]

[

Mick F lives in a similarly rural location, but the difference is that whereas Tewkesbury and the surrounding areas are flatish,

Errr, no they're not. The areas surrounding Tewkesbury and Cheltenham are not flatish. Quite hilly. I should know, I cyle around
them quite a lot.

[pwa]

[

Mick F lives in a similarly rural location, but the difference is that whereas Tewkesbury and the surrounding areas are flatish,

Errr, no they're not. The areas surrounding Tewkesbury and Cheltenham are not flatish. Quite hilly. I should know, I cyle around
them quite a lot.

Me too. And yes there are steep hills not far from Tewkesbury but also wide valleys. Narrow steep sided valleys are not so common close to Tewkesbury itself.

[Mark R]

The argument is about the malevolent form of nimbyism involved in agitating for a switch from diesel to petrol cars. We can do the switch and improve our local air quality at the expense of dumping the problem of increased carbon emissions on everybody else.

Does anyone have a moral justification for drowning a few more poor, brown people in Bangladesh so that we can avoid some of the immediate and self inflicted impacts of our own profligate lifestyle?

I'd be far more interested in reading this than another 55 pages of the sanctimonious rehearsal how evil one particular method of burning fossil fuels is. To me we have a simple choice - we can either reduce our car dependence or man up and take the consequences ourselves. Dumping the problem on someone else is heinous.

Well you were the one who invoked the image of 'rearranging deckchairs on the titanic'.....an excellent analogy for the value of persisting with dirty diesel vehicles in the name of fighting climate change.....

How about we stop trashing air quality for those who have chosen to do something ACTUALLY worthwhile. I'm thinking of people making their journeys using bicycles, and those who rely on public transport. These are the people whose health is most at risk. A question of environmental justice I would say.

I'm sorry you (along with many others) have bought in to the propoganda that diesel engines are somehow a valuable tool to allow individuals to lower their CO2 emissions. It the real world the difference it makes is neither here nor there. The answer of course would be smaller, lighter vehicles along with a lot less driving.

The bottom line is that persisting with clattery smelly diesel vehicles makes no worthwhile difference to the problem of anthropogenic global warming, it just trashes the air quality for everyone else.

[pwa]

I've just been reading a BBC piece about electric cars and the difficulties / opportunities of charging them if you don't have off-street parking. The article had several pics of electric cars next to charging facilities, with leads draped from the charging point to the car. That set me wondering. If the Government's target of most cars being electric by 2030 comes to fruition, or anything like it, leads draped between posts in the pavement and an adjacent car will be come a common thing. And for blind and partially sighted people that will be a nightmare. Crossing a road with parked cars, they will be risking crossing leads as they go for the curb between two parked vehicles.

[thirdcrank]

... If the Government's target of most cars being electric by 2030 comes to fruition, or anything like it, ...

Answering the question "What do you want for your tea?" is a long-term planning issue for politicians. Plans for more than a decade hence are into the long grass or even more impenetrable than that. It may happen and it may not but other forces will decide that. Something illustrated by King Canute some time ago.

[kwackers]

... If the Government's target of most cars being electric by 2030 comes to fruition, or anything like it, ...

Answering the question "What do you want for your tea?" is a long-term planning issue for politicians. Plans for more than a decade hence are into the long grass or even more impenetrable than that. It may happen and it may not but other forces will decide that. Something illustrated by King Canute some time ago.

Indeed, the time taken for electric car adoption will be decided by the car buying public and the manufacturers response to them.
The governments 'target' is largely just echoing a prediction made by folk in the know rather than an actual target.

I suspect their response to electric cars will be mainly driven by necessity rather than any actual planning.

If my car died today, I'd have an electric one tomorrow. I'm hanging on to my old (2005) car for as long as possible though and it's showing no signs of throwing in the towel yet.
Personally I'm planning for an electric future. I'm watching solar panel and home power storage solutions evolve and prices fall, I'll need a new roof in around 10 years so solar tiles or embedded panels might be the way forward and if not then it'll be standard solar panels.

[pwa]

But what about the question of blind people who will be walking along pavements strewn with electric leads. Even if people are tidy and confine the leads to the curb area, blind people crossing the road will have to cross the curb between parked cars and will fall over leads connecting cars to charging points. Doesn't that matter? Is it a price worth paying?

[kwackers]

But what about the question of blind people who will be walking along pavements strewn with electric leads. Even if people are tidy and confine the leads to the curb area, blind people crossing the road will have to cross the curb between parked cars and will fall over leads connecting cars to charging points. Doesn't that matter? Is it a price worth paying?

Of course it matters, but you're saying it as though there's a choice.
Electric cars will happen, if they give blind people issues then they'll be added to issues they already have. If there's a social and/or government response it'll be after the event as always.

I'm afraid that's how the world works. Is it crap? Yes of course it is - hence why I vote for governments that at least make a nod towards social programs and responsibility.

There are plenty of solutions to it though and in all honesty I doubt the mass trailing of cables across pavements is likely to happen. Folk won't want expensive cables unprotected on pavements, at the very least they'll cover them / charge their cars elsewhere or have external chargers fitted (be it 'parking meter' stylee or inductive).

I think this is going to be one of those suck it and see things.

[pete75]

But what about the question of blind people who will be walking along pavements strewn with electric leads. Even if people are tidy and confine the leads to the curb area, blind people crossing the road will have to cross the curb between parked cars and will fall over leads connecting cars to charging points. Doesn't that matter? Is it a price worth paying?

Of course it matters, but you're saying it as though there's a choice.
Electric cars will happen, if they give blind people issues then they'll be added to issues they already have. If there's a social and/or government response it'll be after the event as always.

I'm afraid that's how the world works. Is it crap? Yes of course it is - hence why I vote for governments that at least make a nod towards social programs and responsibility.

There are plenty of solutions to it though and in all honesty I doubt the mass trailing of cables across pavements is likely to happen. Folk won't want expensive cables unprotected on pavements, at the very least they'll cover them / charge their cars elsewhere or have external chargers fitted (be it 'parking meter' stylee or inductive).

I think this is going to be one of those suck it and see things.

If people deliberately put trip hazards across pavements they'll be sued for any accidents caused. That will bring an end to it particularly as there would likely be a large number of incidents so insurance cover would become very expensive or impossible to obtain.
It's not just blind people who wold be at risk from tripping on these cables. Covering the cables might increase the risk of trip accidents. It's also make thing more difficult for people in wheel chairs, pushing prams etc.

[Bonefishblues]

But what about the question of blind people who will be walking along pavements strewn with electric leads. Even if people are tidy and confine the leads to the curb area, blind people crossing the road will have to cross the curb between parked cars and will fall over leads connecting cars to charging points. Doesn't that matter? Is it a price worth paying?

Of course it matters, but you're saying it as though there's a choice.
Electric cars will happen, if they give blind people issues then they'll be added to issues they already have. If there's a social and/or government response it'll be after the event as always.

I'm afraid that's how the world works. Is it crap? Yes of course it is - hence why I vote for governments that at least make a nod towards social programs and responsibility.

There are plenty of solutions to it though and in all honesty I doubt the mass trailing of cables across pavements is likely to happen. Folk won't want expensive cables unprotected on pavements, at the very least they'll cover them / charge their cars elsewhere or have external chargers fitted (be it 'parking meter' stylee or inductive).

I think this is going to be one of those suck it and see things.

Never mind the blind and disabled and litigation (noticing p75's post, too), when the black market in charging cables picks up, then there will be a clamour for Action - Now! (copyright Daily Mail)

[kwackers]

If people deliberately put trip hazards across pavements they'll be sued for any accidents caused. That will bring an end to it particularly as there would likely be a large number of incidents so insurance cover would become very expensive or impossible to obtain.
It's not just blind people who wold be at risk from tripping on these cables. Covering the cables might increase the risk of trip accidents. It's also make thing more difficult for people in wheel chairs, pushing prams etc.

Exactly.
I think it's fearmongering to a degree. No doubt you'll see the odd person stringing a cable across but as soon as it starts to be a problem I suspect the local councils will be over it like a bad rash. Perhaps it really will take a DM headline to make it happen though who knows?

The covers I was thinking of were actually the anti-trip cable protectors. I use them in my workshop and they're great, never tripped over one yet even when risking my back lugging machinery around.

I think the worst scenario is one of extreme cable ugliness.
I envisage a 3rd world power cable scenario where folk throw cables out of bedroom windows on 'supports' or strung between lamposts. Every street a mess of hanging cables...
But hopefully not.

[Bonefishblues]

Extra long charging cables are really really expensive BTW - there's a real-world barrier to adoption for you, too!

[pwa]

Take a look at some of the pics in this article. Look at the ones on public streets. Then imagine if there were lots of charging points, and the effect on a blind person crossing the road and having to re-mount the pavement between two parked cars plugged in to a shared charging point. Or, as someone said, someone pushing a pushchair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42944523

[kwackers]

Take a look at some of the pics in this article. Look at the ones on public streets. Then imagine if there were lots of charging points, and the effect on a blind person crossing the road and having to re-mount the pavement between two parked cars plugged in to a shared charging point. Or, as someone said, someone pushing a pushchair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42944523

You keep banging the blind person drum.
If I want to be harsh then it's an inconvenience for a minority vs deaths & ill health from pollution for the majority.

Rather than pointing out the problems how about suggesting solutions?

My solution is to say "no" to on street charging.
This should make you happy and it'll have very little impact on most electric car buyers who tend to be middle class and either live or work somewhere a charger can be fitted and who will represent the majority of electric car purchasers over the next 5-10 years.
You may think I'm being harsh here, but by denying folk who live in street fronted houses the ability to charge cars up there it'll put immense political pressure on the government to find suitable alternatives.
You can easily install fast chargers in public places. Perhaps parks - kill two birds with one stone. Get folk out to a park to charge up their car and have 20 minute walk whilst they're waiting!
Then there's all the other stuff, inductive chargers etc etc.

From what I know of friends who live in street fronted houses I think once self driving cars arrive they'll give them up in droves. It's not like they can use them anyway, most of the time they don't for fear of losing their parking space.
If they could press a button on their phone and a car turns up quickly to take them somewhere they'd be more than a little keen.

[thirdcrank]

I cannnot speak for all parts of the country by any means, but we've gone in quite a short time from pavement parking being verboten to qite acceptable. FWIW, the obvious answer to on-street charging would be to suspend the cable above head height. In some places, there are terrace houses with a caravan more or less permanently connected to the mains like that.

But it's futile to imagine the future as an inevitable continuation of the present. Driverless cars might change car ownership patterns completely. Or not. Or there might be something else. Transport by flying pig. Who knows?