Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Samuel D
Posts: 3088
Joined: 8 Mar 2015, 11:05pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Samuel D »

I’m all for asking them and groups that represent them. However, no-one asked me if I was okay with turning the whole built environment into a car park. I profoundly regret that, but general change cannot be stopped by the objections of the few.

You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs, and progress on air quality shouldn’t be held ransom by a minority who suffer new inconveniences.

I think people in the future will be astonished that we raised these near-trivial objections to ameliorating the air-quality crisis.
irc
Posts: 5192
Joined: 3 Dec 2008, 2:22pm
Location: glasgow

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by irc »

Samuel D wrote:Ban cars and it can become a pleasant, social space, quiet enough to have conversation, safe enough for young children to be let off the leash, and pleasant enough to attract all the desirable amenities that make a city worth visiting: bars and cafés, restaurants, art galleries, independent shops, theatres, libraries, museums, and all the other civic institutions. Plus, importantly, homes..


You have nearly described central Glasgow. Long stretches of pedestrianised streets which are now the prime shopping areas. Bus gates, one way streets, and bus/taxi/cycle only streets mean the city centre has few through routes for cars. Even as a car owner I'll often cycle into Glasgow or take the train.

Of course all this pedestrainisation is only possible because in the 1970s the M8 inner city motorway was planned and built taking traffic away from the city centre streets which previously were the through routes.

As far as shopping goes Glasgow city centre has outer area retail park challengers but the experience is not in the same class as wandering along Sauchiehall St, Buchanan St, or Argyle St on a sunny day with the mix of chain stores, independents, old pubs, buskers, and so on. The city centre also has a lot of full time residents these days compared to 30 years ago.

As far as air pollution goes the worst street in Glasgow is Hope Street. At the point it is measured the traffic is mostly taxis and buses. Banning cars won't change that. Bus regulation to prevent private bus operator running every service 3/4 empty through the city centre would be needed.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15683049.Pavements_and_pedal_power_could_replace_buses_in_Glasgow_city_centre/
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15683049.Pavements_and_pedal_power_could_replace_buses_in_Glasgow_city_centre/
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

A total ban on busses and taxis using diesel would nail that particular problem overnight.
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

Mark R wrote:There is another important day in court tomorrow in Germany.

The German federal courts will have the final say on whether cities (including Stuttgart - home of the mighty Mercedes Benz) are allowed to ban certain types of vehicles as a response to chronically bad air pollution problems.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2018/02/20/european-auto-industry-on-edge-ahead-of-german-court-decision-on-diesel-bans/#1da14dff237e


Ruling has been deferred until Feb 27th. Boo hiss. Hope those judges haven't been 'got at'....

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/court-considers-banning-diesel-cars-german-cities-53267447
MikeF
Posts: 4340
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by MikeF »

Mark R wrote:A total ban on busses and taxis using diesel would nail that particular problem overnight.
But it wouldn't reduce the small particulates from brake and tyre dust. The london underground has a high level of particulates - no diesel there! A ban on all motorised transport would nail all problems though. :wink:
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

A ban on all motorised transport would nail all problems though. :wink:


No it wouldn't. If we are going to be pedantic, then bicycle tyres, shoe leather and horses hooves would also cause create some particulate matter, perhaps we could cite this as a reason for inaction?

In the real world, changing all those dirty diesels for gas or electric vehicles would make a massive, massive difference to the quality of life in the city.
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by reohn2 »

Mark R wrote:In the real world, changing all those dirty diesels for gas or electric vehicles would make a massive, massive difference to the quality of life in the city.

We would still have the problem of private vehicles clogging up the town and city centres,surely the answer is not to allow private vehicles in at all.
Using public transport to move people around in greater numbers with less vehicles would be better IMO,walking and cycling would be much safer,air would be much cleaner,city centres much quiter and more pleasant live in and visit.
Private vehicles should be banished to park and ride satalite hubs in sparsely populated areas and brown field sites IMO.
Of course we'd need the infrastructure to accomodate such "radical" measures,or continue to choke :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Mark R
Posts: 643
Joined: 13 Feb 2010, 7:41pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mark R »

Yes this illustrates the point I have been making.

Streets which have already had private vehicles banned completely still have pollution levels way above what is acceptable. The street in Glasgow pictured above is a prime example of this.

The reason of course is that all those taxis and buses are still being powered by grossly polluting diesel engines. They don't need to run on diesel. There are much more acceptable alternatives (electric/LPG/CNG) so IMO this is something well worth getting outraged about.

Hopefully the Glasgow example might educate all those who have posted along the lines of: "why pick on diesels? why not tackle the 'real' problem and get everyone on public transport?"

Ban/reduce/restrict private vehicles by all means but if we don't specifically tackle the gross polluters then dirty, smelly unhealthy air is here to stay

The bottom line is that there are sound and compelling reasons to 'pick' on diesel. Not least its potential to utterly trash urban air quality
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by reohn2 »

Mark R wrote:Yes this illustrates the point I have been making.

Streets which have already had private vehicles banned completely still have pollution levels way above what is acceptable. The street in Glasgow pictured above is a prime example of this.

The reason of course is that all those taxis and buses are still being powered by grossly polluting diesel engines. They don't need to run on diesel. There are much more acceptable alternatives (electric/LPG/CNG) so IMO this is something well worth getting outraged about.

Hopefully the Glasgow example might educate all those who have posted along the lines of: "why pick on diesels? why not tackle the 'real' problem and get everyone on public transport?"

Ban/reduce/restrict private vehicles by all means but if we don't specifically tackle the gross polluters then dirty, smelly unhealthy air is here to stay

The bottom line is that there are sound and compelling reasons to 'pick' on diesel. Not least its potential to utterly trash urban air quality

I can only agree with your sentiment about diesel powered buses,I believe diesel engines canbe adapted to run on gas as a stopgap whilst cleaner vehicles are phased in.Whatever hapens I'll bet it won't happen quick,and wont be from any CUK lobbying of parliament.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Mick F »

reohn2 wrote:I believe diesel engines canbe adapted to run on gas as a stopgap whilst cleaner vehicles are phased in.
There are busses in Plymouth that have been converted to gas. No doubt other cities have them.

https://cbwmagazine.com/go-ahead-gas-buses-plymouth/
Mick F. Cornwall
De Sisti
Posts: 1507
Joined: 17 Jun 2007, 6:03pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by De Sisti »

reohn2 wrote:Private vehicles should be banished to park and ride satalite hubs in sparsely populated areas and brown field sites IMO.
Of course we'd need the infrastructure to accomodate such "radical" measures,or continue to choke :?

People's personal freedoms and choice would not let such an idea even hit the drawing board.
reohn2
Posts: 45159
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by reohn2 »

De Sisti wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Private vehicles should be banished to park and ride satalite hubs in sparsely populated areas and brown field sites IMO.
Of course we'd need the infrastructure to accomodate such "radical" measures,or continue to choke :?

People's personal freedoms and choice would not let such an idea even hit the drawing board.

I'm aware of that,so we'll choke.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Samuel D
Posts: 3088
Joined: 8 Mar 2015, 11:05pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Samuel D »

Progress?

It seems more promising than this news from a few days ago.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Diesel - seriously thinking of giving up cycling

Post by Cyril Haearn »

The Bundesverwaltungsgericht decided that *older* diesel vehicles may be officially banned from entering towns where pollution is bad (if one has a dirty vehicle and lives in town, may one drive it out?)

They may be banned from Berlin, Duesseldorf, Stuttgart, Hamburg and many other towns, some quite small. Won't take effect tomorrow mind

The motor firms are likely rubbing their hands in anticipation, many vehicles may lose their value and have to be scrapped and replaced with new ones €€€

It's not over yet mind..
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Post Reply