Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

reohn2
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby reohn2 » 7 Jan 2017, 5:13pm

The utility cyclist wrote:No, it really isn't crass, it's highlighting the massive differential in how people on bikes are treated compared to others, it's very relevant.

It's crass to claim if a dead man who was pushing his wife along a pavement when he had an altercation with a CYCLIST who killed him,had been wearing a helmet wouldn't have now been dead.
In the same way as a driver claiming if a cyclist had been wearing a helmet when they ran into and killed them,wouldn't be dead.
If you can't see the obvious in that you need to have a rethink about respect.

When the person struck the victim he was no longer cycling, ergo it isn't a cycling statistic.

It's because not a few minutes previously the thug was a cyclist and that his cycling behaviour was what caused the altercation.
Again I ask you to have a rethink.

Wrong again, people on bikes are treated as third class citizens with no rights and are particularly targetted every day by the thousand some resulting in death and serious injury, if this was happening to 'pensioners' and the disabled there would be a massive outcry, but because it's people on bikes, 'cyclists', there is none.

I'm not wrong in my replies to your post because of the reasons posted above.
I'm a seasoned cyclist of 50 odd years,so I think I'm aware of the problems cyclists face on UK roads.
May I say IMHO as a pensioner and whose wife is disabled and also a pensioner it does happen to pensioners and the disabled something which the story is ironically about,which seems to have escaped your attention.

This article perpetuates all the negatives that we experience and it is true that we are ALL put into the same basket,

This article perpetuates all the negatives that people,in this case pensioners and disabled people,experience from cycling thugs,to not acknowledge that is crass and ignorant.


Maybe you'll get there one day...

Maybe I've been there a lot longer than your anger will allow you to acknowledge.
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MikeF
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby MikeF » 7 Jan 2017, 9:36pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:If the victim had been wearing a helmet surely they would still be alive, only got themselves to blame... :roll:
crass in the extreme :? :evil:
No, it really isn't crass, it's highlighting the massive differential in how people on bikes are treated compared to others, it's very relevant.

:? Aren't you both saying the same?? :? :?
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby reohn2 » 8 Jan 2017, 12:41am

MikeF wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
reohn2 wrote: crass in the extreme :? :evil:
No, it really isn't crass, it's highlighting the massive differential in how people on bikes are treated compared to others, it's very relevant.

:? Aren't you both saying the same?? :? :?


I'll need that one explaining :?
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Steady rider
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby Steady rider » 8 Jan 2017, 10:19am

I am not sure the article can fully be considered 'Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro', it gives the story of one cyclist who had a dispute and pushed an old person, his fall resulted in death. I expect some old people may fall on ice in the next 4 to 5 weeks and some may die. It is not clear that a similar fall for young people, with a similar head impact, would result in death.

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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby Psamathe » 8 Jan 2017, 11:47am

The utility cyclist wrote:....
When the person struck the victim he was no longer cycling, ergo it isn't a cycling statistic.....

Last year when a driver changed his mind after stopping on a single track road then after squeezing past me decided to stop, get out, come back and start screaming at me 6 ins from my face, I got off my bike (ready to defend myself) - so does this mean it is not a "cycling statistic" ?

Your distinction seems to exclude many cycling incidents.

For example, a Road Rage incident where one driver cuts up another who sounds horn back. Cutting up driver pulls in, gets out of car and starts beating-up the other driver. Would you say the aggressive thug is not a driver because he is no longer driving? Would you say this is not a driving incident because cars were stopped and aggressor is not even in their car ?

Ian
Last edited by Psamathe on 8 Jan 2017, 12:20pm, edited 1 time in total.

reohn2
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby reohn2 » 8 Jan 2017, 12:11pm

Steady rider wrote:I am not sure the article can fully be considered 'Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro', it gives the story of one cyclist who had a dispute and pushed an old person, his fall resulted in death.

I'm very sure cyclists weren't being demonised in the article.
I expect some old people may fall on ice in the next 4 to 5 weeks and some may die. It is not clear that a similar fall for young people, with a similar head impact, would result in death.


But that surely misses the point,which is that the victim was pushed by a cyclist thug who'd just got off his bike presumably to do the pushing,making it a deliberate and aggressive act.
I'm sure said cyclist thug didn't intend killing his victim but that was the result of his thuggery!

The worst part of all of this is that a man is dead,worse still his disabled wife(who witnessed the incident from her wheelchair) is now left on her own without support from a life long friend,loved one and carer.
We then have such a crass statement as has been posted by one individual that if he'd been wearing a helmet he may not have died,and that somehow the cyclist wasn't a cyclist at all and to top it all that cycling is somehow being victimised!!!!!

Chips,and shoulders are words that spring readily to mind hot on the heels of crass statements by people with no respect other than for their myopic perceived group mentality outlook!
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Heltor Chasca
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Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby Heltor Chasca » 8 Jan 2017, 1:34pm

reohn2 wrote:
Steady rider wrote:I am not sure the article can fully be considered 'Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro', it gives the story of one cyclist who had a dispute and pushed an old person, his fall resulted in death.

I'm very sure cyclists weren't being demonised in the article.
I expect some old people may fall on ice in the next 4 to 5 weeks and some may die. It is not clear that a similar fall for young people, with a similar head impact, would result in death.


But that surely misses the point,which is that the victim was pushed by a cyclist thug who'd just got off his bike presumably to do the pushing,making it a deliberate and aggressive act.
I'm sure said cyclist thug didn't intend killing his victim but that was the result of his thuggery!

The worst part of all of this is that a man is dead,worse still his disabled wife(who witnessed the incident from her wheelchair) is now left on her own without support from a life long friend,loved one and carer.
We then have such a crass statement as has been posted by one individual that if he'd been wearing a helmet he may not have died,and that somehow the cyclist wasn't a cyclist at all and to top it all that cycling is somehow being victimised!!!!!

Chips,and shoulders are words that spring readily to mind hot on the heels of crass statements by people with no respect other than for their myopic perceived group mentality outlook!


This is well delivered R2. I would add that there is a culture to get all defensive rather than man up and admit that what has been said is inappropriate.

We are bombarded daily by tragic reports in the media and possibly are prone to becoming desensitised. I get the feeling this is the case with a couple of posters in this thread. Step back chaps. This is real, there's a dead pensioner and a heartbroken family out there.

iviehoff
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby iviehoff » 9 Jan 2017, 4:14pm

Meanwhile:
Motorist assaults Jeremy Vine as he cycled down a street http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37223235
Motorist assaults two men http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html
Motorist assaults pedestrian http://sfist.com/2016/12/21/pedestrian.php
Passerby shoots motorist who was assaulting deputy http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/15/pa ... -stop.html

People who are driving a car when an altercation leading to an assault occurs are frequently described as "motorists". Sometimes also pedestrians. So I think we have to look at how others are described before claiming demonisation.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby The utility cyclist » 9 Jan 2017, 10:56pm

"man up"...just lol, my comment wasn't inappropriate, it was a fair comment on what happens with respect to people on bikes in similar situations

What isn't appropriate and clearly the moderators are fine with is inflammatory comments deliberately targetting a poster that Reohn2 posted at the end of his/her reply to me which had nothing to do with the subject matter and was a personal attack and designed to atagonise, nicely evaded by the resident untouchables who can say what they like on this forum without being pulled up.

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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby 661-Pete » 9 Jan 2017, 11:40pm

What I have to say may appear off-topic, but bear with me.

I fell out badly with a cadre of cyclists some eight to nine years ago. I'm still not clear whose fault. It still rankles. I'm not proud of that fact. In fact the depression which has been oppressing me for years now, got rather worse at that time. I got put on stronger meds. I used to still manage to go out cycling but it was an effort, and I went out feeling, "the last thing I want to happen now, is to meet other cyclists". I preferred to cycle alone. In fact I still do.

So: someone tell me why reading this thread depresses me yet again. Whichever 'side' I take. :(
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reohn2
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby reohn2 » 10 Jan 2017, 11:01am

The utility cyclist wrote:"man up"...just lol, my comment wasn't inappropriate, it was a fair comment on what happens with respect to people on bikes in similar situations

What isn't appropriate and clearly the moderators are fine with is inflammatory comments deliberately targetting a poster that Reohn2 posted at the end of his/her reply to me which had nothing to do with the subject matter and was a personal attack and designed to atagonise, nicely evaded by the resident untouchables who can say what they like on this forum without being pulled up.


Could you clarify which part of which post?
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Si
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby Si » 10 Jan 2017, 1:42pm

We have had no report of inappropriate behavior on this thread. If you are going to complain about lack of moderation you might at least try reporting the issue first.

MikeF
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby MikeF » 10 Jan 2017, 2:33pm

reohn2 wrote:
MikeF wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:
:? Aren't you both saying the same?? :? :?


I'll need that one explaining :?
Well I took the remark by TUC to be "tongue in cheek" eg that's what would be said about a cyclist who had been injured regardless of anything else. I initially took yours to mean you were emphasising the remark, but clearly you weren't as you were taking it literally.
I don't think intended meanings are always conveyed or have the intended effect in brief exchanges. And there are those (eg Asperger's) who can only comprehend a literal meaning so that adds to confusion. :wink:

Like you I'm appalled by this unnecessary killing.
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby MikeF » 10 Jan 2017, 3:12pm

661-Pete wrote:What I have to say may appear off-topic, but bear with me.

I fell out badly with a cadre of cyclists some eight to nine years ago. I'm still not clear whose fault. It still rankles. I'm not proud of that fact. In fact the depression which has been oppressing me for years now, got rather worse at that time. I got put on stronger meds. I used to still manage to go out cycling but it was an effort, and I went out feeling, "the last thing I want to happen now, is to meet other cyclists". I preferred to cycle alone. In fact I still do.

So: someone tell me why reading this thread depresses me yet again. Whichever 'side' I take. :(
I cycle alone. I'm not unsociable, but it gives me the freedom to, go where I want, stop when I want, choose my own route even as I'm cycling, decide whether to avoid hills or not, explore wherever, choose my speed etc. Cycling in a group wouldn't give me that, but I can see there can be enjoyment in that. On the road I do give other cyclists a wave/acknowledgement etc.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
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Re: Cyclists demonised in paper, todays metro

Postby reohn2 » 10 Jan 2017, 3:56pm

MikeF wrote:Well I took the remark by TUC to be "tongue in cheek" eg that's what would be said about a cyclist who had been injured regardless of anything else. I initially took yours to mean you were emphasising the remark, but clearly you weren't as you were taking it literally.
I don't think intended meanings are always conveyed or have the intended effect in brief exchanges. And there are those (eg Asperger's) who can only comprehend a literal meaning so that adds to confusion. :wink:

Like you I'm appalled by this unnecessary killing.


What I couldn't tolerate was,given the terrible circumstances,aftermath and mindless violence displayed by the assailant,TUC was crackers to try to capitalise on the death of this man by introducing trivial helmet wearing into the thread,hence my posting his post was crass,however lighthearted it was intended.
I can't get my head around that kind of humour,if indeed it was intended as such.
EDIT:- If people could see the aftermath of the needless and senseless loss of a loved one in such circumstances,and the effect it has throughout the family,they simply wouldn't make such mindless remarks.
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