Starting a petition?

[GrumpyGit]

I've had a thought which in the long term could (I believe) be a life saver on our roads.

My apologies if this has been proposed before, I did a quick search and didn't find any matches.

I don't have any experience in starting, draughting or promoting petitions to get an issue raised in parliament so if this idea looks like it might attract a suitable level of support I'll need assistance and support from the more experienced campaigners amongst our number.

The basic idea is that before anyone is eligible to apply for a provisional driving licence and start learning to drive a motor vehicle people should have to submit a pass certificate from an approved cycling course. I see the course as being like an advanced "bikeability" or cycling proficiency but to include a minimum number of hours riding a bicycle on the roads and in traffic.

This requirement would also apply to new arrivals in our country who are required to obtain a UK licence (I believe there is a limit to how long a foreign licence can be used here).

The vision behind this is that in the long term all drivers will have had experience of cycling and therefore should be more careful around cyclists because they remember what it was like. In the shorter term drivers will be aware that their sons, daughters, nephews and nieces are on the roads on bikes and should have their awareness heightened.

A fringe benefit of my plan could well be that a proportion of aspiring drivers could continue to cycle thus reducing the number of car miles driver and hopefully start to bring us closer to Dutch levels of bicycle use.

Well, what do you think? Could this change become law and will it save lives?

Thanks!
Grumpy

[Cyril Haearn]

I've had a thought which in the long term could (I believe) be a life saver on our roads.

My apologies if this has been proposed before, I did a quick search and didn't find any matches.

I don't have any experience in starting, draughting or promoting petitions to get an issue raised in parliament so if this idea looks like it might attract a suitable level of support I'll need assistance and support from the more experienced campaigners amongst our number.

The basic idea is that before anyone is eligible to apply for a provisional driving licence and start learning to drive a motor vehicle people should have to submit a pass certificate from an approved cycling course. I see the course as being like an advanced "bikeability" or cycling proficiency but to include a minimum number of hours riding a bicycle on the roads and in traffic.

This requirement would also apply to new arrivals in our country who are required to obtain a UK licence (I believe there is a limit to how long a foreign licence can be used here).

...
Grumpy

Would it apply to people coming from NL?

What is an enlightened petrolhead?

[thirdcrank]

The idea's not new, but I don't think it's ever been promoted hard so nothing wrong with you giving it a go.

It came to me out of the blue when I was doing a phone-in for radio Leeds in my Right to Ride Days. There was a call from somebody suggesting that cyclists should have to have third party insurance and pass a test. The insurance bit was dead easy in that I got in a plug for the CTC Third Party Cover then I said that as a driving licence holder since 1965 I had no problem with the idea of tests and perhaps passing a cycling test should be a prerequisite for getting a driving licence. IIRC, the caller didn't stay on long enough to hear me say that it might encourage more people to take up cycling, in line with the then recently launched Notional Cycling Strategy.

I don't know why but it never caught on.

There was no Bikeability in those days so the old Cycling Proficiency Test was all I could refer to and needless to say I passed that as well.

[Barks]

While I applaud your idea in so many ways, I believe it is a non-starter as it is simply not realistic to limit drivers to those who have cycled be that potential professionals, new or foreign drivers. In so many peoples view, cycling is not safe at all and the idea that you can 'force' people to take risk that so many find unacceptable ( no matter how misguided this view may be) will just not run. Trying to run such a petition would also likely result in yet another barrage against the 'anti-motorist cycling Lycra louts who think they own the road' type of reaction. Effective enforcement and realistic punishment is what is required and driver training that specifically places a much greater emphasis on courtesy and care for ALL other road users whatever mode of travel they are using. Compulsory periodic refresher training for ALL those convicted of a careless or dangerous driving offence, a label on the car ( L plate style) when being driven by anyone with more than 6 points on their licence, a period on a provisional licence and having to be accompanied when returning from a ban, in fact anything that names and shames such individuals might be very effective. Any other ideas out there?

[GrumpyGit]

Would it apply to people coming from NL?

What is an enlightened petrolhead?

Until BREXIT kicks in AFAIK, EU citizens don't have to change their licence. That's why we have the blue flag in the corner.

An enlightened petrolhead? I still love the sound of a throbbing V8 but I own 4x as many bicycles as motor cars and do many more miles pedalling 2 wheels than driving 4

[Mick F]

What about disabled people?

We had a member on here called Handling Harry. He rode a hand-cranked trike, and no doubt he could have driven a suitably equipped car.

I have a mate with one leg. He drives ........... and he rides a motorbike!

[GrumpyGit]

What about disabled people?

We had a member on here called Handling Harry. He rode a hand-cranked trike, and no doubt he could have driven a suitably equipped car.

I have a mate with one leg. He drives ........... and he rides a motorbike!

Fair point Mick.

I suppose they could use an e-bike or trike??????

[landsurfer]

Nonsense ... Forget it ... Your infringing my human rights ...

[Psamathe]

Thinking aloud (so probably daft, but "off-the-wall), used to be the case that you pass you IAM test and you got a discount of your car insurance (as it identified you as a better/more qualified/whatever driver). I wonder if there is some mileage in encouraging some "incentives" for drivers to have taken the cycling course. Maybe difficult to get insurance companies to offer discounts, but are there alternative perks that could be offered e.g. "fast track" to get your test date - we used to have quite long waits for a test so something that would allow you to queue jump would have been popular; maybe a shorter "P" plates time or longer "P" plates time without the cycling course (if "P" plates are even required these days and maybe they should (separate issue).

Ian

[Psamathe]

If starting a petition (for whatever you finally decide), avoid 38degrees and change.org as both have issues with SPAM and some people (myself and quite a few people I know) wont sign anything on their sites after problems (following signing on those sites) in the past.

Plus, these 3rd party sites can (and normally are) completely ignored by government (or who they are targeted at). The No 10 Government Petitions site is probably the best as if you work and hit the threshold number of signatures the Government becomes obliged to respond (plus you don't get the SPAM grief if you sign petitions there).

Ian

[Ruadh495]

I used to get a discount on my car insurance for owning a motorcycle. Firstly because "access to another vehicle" meant I wouldn't be using the car as much (strange one that, there were two drivers on the policy but I was considered the more dangerous, even though the more experienced by a considerable margin, because I'm male...) and secondly because the insurance company believed active motorcyclists were safer drivers (I think they had some stats). The same could be said of cyclists, I expect, but proving "active" cycling status might involve a level of regulation we'd prefer not to have.

So maybe car insurers could offer a discount to holders of specific cycling qualifications.

[Pete Owens]

This seems a really good idea for a petition.

What you should demand is Bikeability level 3 as a prerequisite for obtaining a provisional drivers licence.

There is no point in requiring X hours of experience on a bike - how would this be monitored?
Also make sure not to effect existing drivers - politically impossible - though it should be required for any banned driver seeking to regain their licence.

There are also some plus points for drivers (regardless of whether they think seeing things from a cyclists POV is desirable).
Driving lessons are very expensive so it would be cheaper to learn the rules of the road on a cycle - not to mention safer to do this using a less lethal vehicle.

[Barks]

Many cyclists may well think this is a good idea but, and I have mentioned it in an earlier post, it runs a very real risk of generating more anti cycling sentiment from a whole range of drivers. What about the converse, you can't ride a bike on the road until you have passed your driving test so you can properly understand how cyclists just get in the way. The OP suggestion just comes across as a 'pop' at drivers and, in my view, would be very unhelpful.

[Pete Owens]

Many cyclists may well think this is a good idea

That is because it is a completely reasonable idea.
The fact that you feel the need to present your argument as those of a "range of drivers", rather than your own, suggests you actually understand the shortcomings of your case.

[karlt]

Many cyclists may well think this is a good idea but, and I have mentioned it in an earlier post, it runs a very real risk of generating more anti cycling sentiment from a whole range of drivers. What about the converse, you can't ride a bike on the road until you have passed your driving test so you can properly understand how cyclists just get in the way. The OP suggestion just comes across as a 'pop' at drivers and, in my view, would be very unhelpful.

I would suggest there's a significant asymmetry between the two suggestions.

1. Driving a motor vehicle presents a considerable risk to other road users, which is why its use is hedged by legal requirements, not least the competence based driving test (stop laughing at the back!). Riding a bicycle does not present anything like the same risk and therefore it is much harder to justify any kind of competence test, especially one for another class of vehicle altogether.

2. The reason for requiring cycle experience of aspiring drivers is not that they prove competence on one vehicle type before progressing to another. It is two fold. Firstly, it serves to reinforce in aspiring drivers the nature of the risk they pose to other road users and the reasons why they are required to drive in the manner they (theoretically) are. Secondly, it gives aspiring drivers the opportunity to practice and develop their knowledge of road law and the Highway Code in a non-threatening vehicle, instead of being restricted to formal lessons and times a qualified driver is available to accompany them.

With this in mind I would not require a pass of a Bikeability or any other course (the "competence test for another class of vehicle" argument above applies) but rather a certain number of hours of attendance, which would need to be signed off by the instructor, who could refuse to do so if the candidate was clearly merely time-serving and not actually engaging with the course.

Incidentally, I would be inclined to write a couple of exceptions into the law - if you qualify for a blue badge then you can apply for an exemption which will be based on your specific disability and how it relates to cycling. Automatic exemption if you qualify for motability. However, in both cases, an additional theory test concerning the Highway Code as it relates to vulnerable road users would have to be passed.