the benefits of congestion

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mjr
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby mjr » 27 Feb 2017, 6:24pm

brynpoeth wrote:When I go into town I leave my bike on the edge of the CBD and walk to my various destinations. I cycle11 km and walk 2-3 km. Many, surely most trips use two modes. Except the walking only trips, they are legion

Probably and part of cycling's advantage comes from the ability to park closer to the destination than most motorists can, both due to sheer physics (larger cars means that even just other cars already parked between them and the destination can add up to a significant distance to walk) and due to planning policies in places like Norfolk meaning the cycle parking should be closer to the entrance than any car parking (it's not always).

There's some maths about parking proximity, walking distances and how it can mean motoring part of a journey is slower than cycling part on https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... meability/
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby brynpoeth » 27 Feb 2017, 7:35pm

brynpoeth wrote:
mjr wrote:However, one of the drawbacks of increasing congestion due to the failure to enact any sensible transport policies has been repeated attempts to turn greenway sections of National 1 and other cycle routes into roads for motorists. Sometimes this has come with handwaving like suggesting the lightweight bridges won't need any improvement if it's only for cars, which seems like an obvious fib, especially as even the strongest of those bridges are usually fairly narrow, so where would the people walking and cycling go? Walk unprotected along a busy urban road? Or would they be expected to wait for there to be no cars? Jump off into the water if one comes when they're partway across?

Be careful what you wish for. We need to get more people cycling first, else increased congestion.. .


Thanks for the info about the Hanseatic City of Kings Lynn, it could be the new Amsterdam but more fun to visit, A is too big

I disagree about increasing cycling first! Motoring must be reduced first. It would be best if many drivers stayed at home and did not upgrade to cycling

When I go into town I leave my bike on the edge of the CBD and walk to my various destinations. I cycle 11 km and walk 2-3 km. Many, surely most trips use two modes. Except the walking only trips, they are legion
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby andrewk » 28 Feb 2017, 12:19am

Vorpal wrote:
So, it got me to thinking. What if congestion were terrible all the time. What if we limited traffic to a couple of main throughfares, and only allowed it off into residential areas for access. Would more people cycle? Just to get away from the nightmare traffic? Can we do an experiment somewhere with this? What is the tipping point at which people start to cycle? It is down to journey time?


Wishing congestion on others merely to promote cycling is myopic, stupid, anti social and self defeating.
1. Perpetual congestion may well drive people out of their cars but it is not given, IMO unlikely that it would drive them to cycling. A motorcycle or scooter being more likely.
2. Such anti car attitudes are what make the majority ( and with good reason ) dislike cyclists and dismiss them as weirdos.
3. Congestion increases pollution which harms everyone which means YOU too.

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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby Vorpal » 28 Feb 2017, 6:31am

andrewk wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
So, it got me to thinking. What if congestion were terrible all the time. What if we limited traffic to a couple of main throughfares, and only allowed it off into residential areas for access. Would more people cycle? Just to get away from the nightmare traffic? Can we do an experiment somewhere with this? What is the tipping point at which people start to cycle? It is down to journey time?


Wishing congestion on others merely to promote cycling is myopic, stupid, anti social and self defeating.
1. Perpetual congestion may well drive people out of their cars but it is not given, IMO unlikely that it would drive them to cycling. A motorcycle or scooter being more likely.
2. Such anti car attitudes are what make the majority ( and with good reason ) dislike cyclists and dismiss them as weirdos.
3. Congestion increases pollution which harms everyone which means YOU too.

Then how do we *not* have congestion all the time? Building more roads only means more space filled up with cars.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby reohn2 » 28 Feb 2017, 9:47am

Mrs R2 and I visited her sister in Manchester Royal Infirmary yesterday afternoon.
From where we live in Lowton it's 2.5 miles to J23 M6,then M62 from J21A continuing onto M602,continuing onto Regent Rd,then A57(M) exiting onto the A34 and turning off into Grafton Street into the hospital multistory car park.
The 23 mile journey took us just less than 40mins door to door from 12.20pm(lunchtime?) and was only slowed by slight congestion on the A34.

The return journey took us 1 hour 55mins due to congestion.It's 3/4mile from the hospital to the A57(M) and took 45mins,35 of those minutes(visiting is from 2 to 5pm,we left at 4pm) actually getting off the car park onto Grafton St by sheer volume of traffic.
The rest of the 22mile journey took the remaining 1hr 10mins,hold ups were a tailback at the M602/M60 Junction(J1 M602)due to traffic backing up from the M60 onto the M602,the hold up cost us 10minutes max,and a shunt in the middle lane of the M602 as traffic cleared the M60 M602 junction which cost us 5mins.
I reckon the return journey would have,without those two hold ups been 1hr 35mins to cover 23miles home all but for 2.5mile from Lowton to J23 M6,1mile on Regent Rd and 3/4mile on the A34,was motorway.

Until we got moving out of the city there was a heavy petro-chemical smell.

I noticed there were quite a few cyclists on the A34 having to ride with the motor traffic.Taking my cyclists head off,to any logical thinking non cyclist joe and joe-ess it looked like a very risky form of transport due to the very heavy traffic and total lack of cycling provision,the term quart into a pint pot sprang to mind with regard to the traffic on that road both going and returning.
We discussed how we felt sorry for the people who have to make a journey twice a day in that sort of traffic.
IMHO this isn't the way modern society with all the technology at it's fingertips should be moving people about in the 21st century.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby horizon » 28 Feb 2017, 12:35pm

andrewk wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
So, it got me to thinking. What if congestion were terrible all the time. What if we limited traffic to a couple of main throughfares, and only allowed it off into residential areas for access. Would more people cycle? Just to get away from the nightmare traffic? Can we do an experiment somewhere with this? What is the tipping point at which people start to cycle? It is down to journey time?


Wishing congestion on others merely to promote cycling is myopic, stupid, anti social and self defeating.
1. Perpetual congestion may well drive people out of their cars but it is not given, IMO unlikely that it would drive them to cycling. A motorcycle or scooter being more likely.
2. Such anti car attitudes are what make the majority ( and with good reason ) dislike cyclists and dismiss them as weirdos.
3. Congestion increases pollution which harms everyone which means YOU too.


andrewk: do tell us how you would propose to reduce congestion.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby mjr » 28 Feb 2017, 2:16pm

reohn2 wrote:Mrs R2 and I visited her sister in Manchester Royal Infirmary yesterday afternoon.
From where we live in Lowton [...]
The 23 mile journey took us just less than 40mins door to door from 12.20pm(lunchtime?) and was only slowed by slight congestion on the A34.

The return journey took us 1 hour 55mins due to congestion.

Congestion? Should that be "due to people like us making similar decisions to use motor vehicles instead of a 55 minute bike+train journey to try to save a few minutes, £7.20 train fare and a bit of exercise"? ;-)

reohn2 wrote:I reckon the return journey would have,without those two hold ups been 1hr 35mins to cover 23miles home all but for 2.5mile from Lowton to J23 M6,1mile on Regent Rd and 3/4mile on the A34,was motorway.

Maybe, but why should it be? You can't really expect less use of the roads, surely?

reohn2 wrote:We discussed how we felt sorry for the people who have to make a journey twice a day in that sort of traffic.
IMHO this isn't the way modern society with all the technology at it's fingertips should be moving people about in the 21st century.

I agree that it's not how we should be moving people about. Rather than feeling sorry for other people who decide to go motoring, many of whom will also later discover they made an incorrect decision about what would be faster and more convenient, I feel we need to accept that this individual-level decision-making is broken and work to fix it - part of which will probably be making it more obviously attractive to more people to cycle as a way of getting past motorists blocking the A34.

Instead, the Manchester councils seem to be trying to deflect cycling off onto near-parallel routes which are also busy - Oxford Road and Plymouth Grove, for example. The time will probably come where they've got to bite the pollution/congestion bullet and take a lane out of the five-lanes-plus-centre-hatching A34 to help reduce pollution (four lanes = lower exhaust density) and encourage cycling.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby reohn2 » 28 Feb 2017, 2:56pm

mjr wrote:Congestion? Should that be "due to people like us making similar decisions to use motor vehicles instead of a 55 minute bike+train journey to try to save a few minutes, £7.20 train fare and a bit of exercise"? ;-)

Well it would be if we could,but for reasons I'm not prepared to go into publicly we can't.
But I take your point,it's 2.5miles to the station,and a mile from Oxford Rd station at the other end which is very doable by bike,however the congestion within Manchester city centre would be enough to put off most people from even considering cycling.


Maybe, but why should it be? You can't really expect less use of the roads, surely?

Well you could if there were enough trains to cope with the influx of people leaving their cars at home or with strategically placed hubs outside of the city and or dedicated cycle roads and buses into the centre.
See my previous posts on this thread.

I agree that it's not how we should be moving people about. Rather than feeling sorry for other people who decide to go motoring, many of whom will also later discover they made an incorrect decision about what would be faster and more convenient, I feel we need to accept that this individual-level decision-making is broken and work to fix it - part of which will probably be making it more obviously attractive to more people to cycle as a way of getting past motorists blocking the A34.

I agree,see my point above.

Instead, the Manchester councils seem to be trying to deflect cycling off onto near-parallel routes which are also busy - Oxford Road and Plymouth Grove, for example. The time will probably come where they've got to bite the pollution/congestion bullet and take a lane out of the five-lanes-plus-centre-hatching A34 to help reduce pollution (four lanes = lower exhaust density) and encourage cycling.

Whatever the council is doing to stop pollution and congestion IMO ain't half enough.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby mjr » 28 Feb 2017, 3:10pm

reohn2 wrote:Well it would be if we could,but for reasons I'm not prepared to go into publicly we can't.

Fair enough. Maybe you should feel angry about the other people who could get out of their cars but aren't, as much as sorry for others who genuinely can't?

reohn2 wrote:But I take your point,it's 2.5miles to the station,and a mile from Oxford Rd station at the other end which is very doable by bike,however the congestion within Manchester city centre would be enough to put off most people from even considering cycling.

I suspect that's more perception, but I agree: advertising cycling to motorists is why it's a mistake for cycling to be completely unsupported on major routes like Upper Brook Street.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby reohn2 » 28 Feb 2017, 3:47pm

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Well it would be if we could,but for reasons I'm not prepared to go into publicly we can't.

Fair enough. Maybe you should feel angry about the other people who could get out of their cars but aren't, as much as sorry for others who genuinely can't?

But they can't,public transport hasn't got the capacity,it isn't geared up for that kind of mass movement of people,the money for transport IMHO is being spend in the wrong way.
To illustrate the point,the need for local movement of people is immediate HS2 isn't,that's why I feel sorry for them ,they haven't got much of a choice.
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It doesn't get more immediate yet no one in government is prepared to grasp that nettle,stop cars entering highly populated areas such a town and city centres.

I suspect that's more perception, but I agree: advertising cycling to motorists is why it's a mistake for cycling to be completely unsupported on major routes like Upper Brook Street.

It doesn't even get off first base with councils,they seem to be unable to grasp the size of the problem and take the necessary action.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby mjr » 28 Feb 2017, 5:06pm

reohn2 wrote:
mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Well it would be if we could,but for reasons I'm not prepared to go into publicly we can't.

Fair enough. Maybe you should feel angry about the other people who could get out of their cars but aren't, as much as sorry for others who genuinely can't?

But they can't,public transport hasn't got the capacity,it isn't geared up for that kind of mass movement of people,the money for transport IMHO is being spend in the wrong way.

I agree, although I think part of the reason that public transport hasn't got the capacity is that people aren't applying sufficient pressure to government. Instead, they get in their cars and then complain about "congestion" which politicians can misinterpret as support for more bulldozing and tarmacking.

I'd also bet that some of those on the A34 were travelling less than an easy cycling distance and wouldn't add any public transport demand.

Why aren't people livid? Why aren't they going and humiliating their motorist politicians?
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby reohn2 » 28 Feb 2017, 5:22pm

mjr wrote:I'd also bet that some of those on the A34 were travelling less than an easy cycling distance and wouldn't add any public transport demand.

My previous posts seem to be bouncing off :? ,people on the street aren't prepared to fight for space on bicycles with motors,that's why they don't cycle.

Why aren't people livid?

They probably are but the ordinary man and woman on the street don't see another way,they don't have another vision,because they haven't seen any other alternative other than overcrowded,overpriced,bad public transport alternatives brought about by poor funding and public transport needing to make a profit rather than provide a service.

Why aren't they going and humiliating their motorist politicians?

Apathy and total lack of belief in politicians,and not without reason.
The whole transport system is based on profit AFAICS,no profit no action,it's the capitalist way.
Rather than coming from the angle of providing a service to move people around with maximum efficiency.
Last edited by reohn2 on 1 Mar 2017, 7:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby Stevek76 » 28 Feb 2017, 5:50pm

reohn2 wrote:But they can't,public transport hasn't got the capacity,it isn't geared up for that kind of mass movement of people,the money for transport IMHO is being spend in the wrong way.


Wrong way or simply not enough? The dutch for example appear to spend considerably more (as a % of GDP) than us on transport as a whole.

At any rate, even ignoring the political popularity issues of trying to encourage drivers out of their vehicles (see bristol mayoral elections), while the government continues to chronically underfund councils and have tokenistic national pots to bid for for active modes progress outside the capital is likely to remain a snails pace.

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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby reohn2 » 28 Feb 2017, 6:03pm

Stevek76 wrote:Wrong way or simply not enough? ..............


Both IMO
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Re: the benefits of congestion

Postby MikeF » 28 Feb 2017, 8:58pm

Of course it's not just "moving" :lol: motor traffic that's a problem, but parked vehicles. At the present rate of car production (good for the economy :roll:) we are reaching the point in many areas where there isn't space to put them let alone drive them on roads; they end up being left on any available space, be that pavements, greens, verges etc. :evil:

"Smart" motorways are being introduced whereby the hard shoulder is used as another lane. No-one seems to question what happens when that, as it will, becomes congested.

I don't think many people realise that cycling is the fastest means of local transport - even if they walk and don't drive to the shops.
At least slow moving motor traffic sometimes can make for easier cycling. :wink:
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